8 ms·

Having followed SSC for a number of years in the mid-2010s, I eventually just started drifting away. The so-called Grey Tribe is really just toxicity that's man

Having followed SSC for a number of years in the mid-2010s, I eventually just started drifting away. The so-called Grey Tribe is really just toxicity that's managed to talk itself into self-unawareness. Case in point, quoted from the article: > The main reason computer scientists, mathematicians and other groups were predominantly male was not that the industries were sexist, he argued, but that women were simply less interested in joining. This is exactly the sort of thing you manage to convince yourself of when you don't want to be a part of the people calling themselves the good guys, but also don't want to throw in with the sorts of people comfortable with being called the bad guys. Everybody in the Blue Tribe is going to precisely see the toxic nature of this statement. Women aren't interested in joining because of the sexist nature of the industries. Reversing the order of the causation is making excuses for sexism and is itself sexist. The New York Times does not have to explain this to its audience. They already know. All they really have to do is list the cavalcade of toxicity that the community produced and everybody who has been in the Blue Tribe for years will know the score, and people like me who were actually a part of it and drifted away from the Grey Tribe to join the Blue Tribe are nodding their heads. Now, this is Hacker News, this community is very close to the SSC one, so I know a lot of people aren't going to take this well. But the Grey Tribe really isn't a nice place to be, and the sooner you can realize this, the sooner you can find actual political heft in the world. Contrarian logic sucks. Rationalism isn't all it's cracked up to be. It sucks all the life out of the air for minorities. When you state a contrarian opinion like it's fact, like it should be considered because you're the one saying it, and the reason you're stating it is none other than you don't like all those nasty SJWs, you're denying the lived experience of all the people out there who spent their lives being one of those oppressed minorities. All of those girls who hide their gender from their gaming pals. All those Black Americans who discover that the tech landscape doesn't reward knowledge and talent as much as it does the right race and skin color. It may be a little better in the tech industry than it might be, say, in the construction industry, but to pretend these things don't exist or aren't as important as what your mind sees as bigger is, well, toxic. And it's the cornerstone of the Grey Tribe mindset.

zozbot234 6y ago
> The main reason computer scientists, mathematicians and other groups were predominantly male was not that the industries were sexist, he argued, but that women were simply [emphasis added] less interested in joining. This is not a fair summary of the argument. There's nothing "simple" about the pipeline problem, and what 'grey tribe' folks object to is not the rather generic claim that "the industry is sexist" (since there are in fact plenty of problematic practices in the tech industry that may adversely impact women) but the rather more specific argument that discrimination in hiring practices/educational admissions/etc. is to blame for the imbalance. Clearly, there's quite a bit of evidence against that proposed mechanism.
- vinceguidry 6y ago
  If you've been suffused in the diversity problem for years, then it's perfectly understandable and you can boil down to very succinct arguments, that won't be convincing to anyone vested in maintaining the status quo. I'm not entirely sure how much effort I want to put into trying to convince people who obviously don't want to be convinced, but here goes, since my above comment has been received well enough. The industry is sexist. That's the answer. No more, and no less than other industries. This is very very very very very basic intersectionism. I can get a little deeper on this but someone well-versed in this can get a lot deeper. Industry leaders do not want to listen to these experts. Because it threatens them. I'm lucky enough to work for a company big enough to realize they need to take it seriously. There's employee resource groups and the leadership talks about it, not in every town hall, but in enough of them. But Silicon Valley is run by a tribe of mavericks. They call it a pipeline problem when it's really a willingness problem. If they took it seriously they'd already have a solution. They don't, because sexism.
  - orangecat 6y ago
    The industry is sexist. That's the answer. No more, and no less than other industries. If it's not more sexist than other industries, then that can't be the reason why there are fewer women. They call it a pipeline problem when it's really a willingness problem. If they took it seriously they'd already have a solution. Please enlighten us with the solution that will produce an equal ratio of men and women when 80% of CS graduates are men.

zozbot234 6y ago

> The main reason computer scientists, mathematicians and other groups were predominantly male was not that the industries were sexist, he argued, but that women were simply [emphasis added] less interested in joining. This is not a fair summary of the argument. There's nothing "simple" about the pipeline problem, and what 'grey tribe' folks object to is not the rather generic claim that "the industry is sexist" (since there are in fact plenty of problematic practices in the tech industry that may adversely impact women) but the rather more specific argument that discrimination in hiring practices/educational admissions/etc. is to blame for the imbalance. Clearly, there's quite a bit of evidence against that proposed mechanism.

vinceguidry 6y ago
If you've been suffused in the diversity problem for years, then it's perfectly understandable and you can boil down to very succinct arguments, that won't be convincing to anyone vested in maintaining the status quo. I'm not entirely sure how much effort I want to put into trying to convince people who obviously don't want to be convinced, but here goes, since my above comment has been received well enough. The industry is sexist. That's the answer. No more, and no less than other industries. This is very very very very very basic intersectionism. I can get a little deeper on this but someone well-versed in this can get a lot deeper. Industry leaders do not want to listen to these experts. Because it threatens them. I'm lucky enough to work for a company big enough to realize they need to take it seriously. There's employee resource groups and the leadership talks about it, not in every town hall, but in enough of them. But Silicon Valley is run by a tribe of mavericks. They call it a pipeline problem when it's really a willingness problem. If they took it seriously they'd already have a solution. They don't, because sexism.
- orangecat 6y ago
  The industry is sexist. That's the answer. No more, and no less than other industries. If it's not more sexist than other industries, then that can't be the reason why there are fewer women. They call it a pipeline problem when it's really a willingness problem. If they took it seriously they'd already have a solution. Please enlighten us with the solution that will produce an equal ratio of men and women when 80% of CS graduates are men.