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Rust, Python and now Kotlin. Just as PSF promoted Google to visionary sponsor, although I understand Jetbrains, but we see yet again our saviour Google on the

Rust, Python and now Kotlin. Just as PSF promoted Google to visionary sponsor, although I understand Jetbrains, but we see yet again our saviour Google on the board of yet another language, even after Rust formed its foundation. I guess I have no choice to accept this future we've put ourselves in.

high_density 6y ago
well Google's using all three in different ways... and another trend on prog. langs: they're becoming more and more similar feature-wise (eg. pattern matching)
- yannoninator 6y ago
  > well Google's using all three in different ways... So that justifies giving them a seat at the board of directors and not just a sponsorship? Apple and Facebook both use Rust but I don't see anything about them being on the board (at least Facebook for now), the least I expect is sponsorship.
  - ta988 6y ago
    Google contributes a lot to Kotlin though. So they are not just sponsors.
    - yannoninator 6y ago
      Interesting perspective, so just like Rust then? Seems like Google can just buy board seats then.
      - ta988 6y ago
        If you mean by dedicating workforce (which costs money, and a lot for them because of their salaries policies) they are buying a seat? Yes. The same way a major contributor (not just code, but doc, funding, community building...) to a FOSS project often has more power on the decisions than users. Now I would be unhappy to see a company that just pours millions in a project, gets to take decisions but doesn't do anything else to make the project better. But I don't believe that's the case here.
        yannoninator 6y ago
        You can do all of this without getting a board seat. It seems we are all OK with allowing this to happen, but we shall see.
  - dieortin 6y ago
    I’m curious, what does Apple use Rust for?
    - steveklabnik 6y ago
      They were hiring for their storage and networking groups, but that’s all we know.
  - chuckSu 6y ago
    We get it... you hate google
ta988 6y ago
I understand that side (and I'm personally against Google's behavior, hegemony and influence on almost everything). But Google is one of the few companies that gives back to projects they use. You can't say that of many other companies that use tools and make sure they never contribute back (either financially or as code). As long as they don't put their adcrap in any of those languages or the things around them...
- yannoninator 6y ago
  > But Google is one of the few companies that gives back to projects they use. Apple gives back to open source projects. Isn't Swift open source as well as LLVM and Webkit? Makes sense because they made them and a long time user of them.
  - ta988 6y ago
    I didn't say some other companies don't give back either If you compare the number of companies using a project and how many contribute, you will likely only need one hand to count the later...
    - yannoninator 6y ago
      I don't think this is a good thing in the long term, a conflict of interest can arise, then Google would pull out. But then again, I guess I have no choice to accept this future we've put ourselves in. At least I can as an individual give back to Kotlin, no wait...
  - arusahni 6y ago
    WebKit has to be open source because it's a KHTML fork.
    - cwzwarich 6y ago
      This isn't actually true. KHTML is LGPL 2.0, so you can release source code for the pieces you modified and binary blobs for the rest. WebKit proper (as opposed to WebCore, which was based on KHTML, and JavaScriptCore, which was based on KJS) was originally not open source.
blacktriangle 6y ago
I agree with your general Google paranoia, but in this case I'm okay with it since Google is easily the number 1 user of Kotlin thanks to its roll in making Android development infinitely more productive.
- yannoninator 6y ago
  Jane Street is the No. 1 user of OCaml for a very long time, although sponsoring it, they don't have a board seat on the OCaml Foundation. You don't need to provide a board seat to any company that tries to throw money at you, just because they use your language. Just make them a sponsor, and there are examples of this.
steveklabnik 6y ago
What is your specific dislike about Google on the Rust Foundation board?
- yannoninator 6y ago
  Steve, I don't understand why Google, Microsoft and AWS et. al are on a board of this new foundation. Who had a say on this decision? And the special guest is Huawei as well just because they use Rust in some way. I'd rather have them sponsor Rust without giving them too much control by placing them on the board.
  - steveklabnik 6y ago
    The foundation was created as a project of the core team. Nobody was a "special guest." All parties agreed to the terms. That's what the founders of an organization does. Again, specifically: what control are you worried about? I suspect that you think the foundation has powers it does not have.
    - yannoninator 6y ago
      It is the structure that I am concerned about. Again, I'd rather have them just sponsor Rust, why wasn't a gold or platinum sponsorship like structure considered without placing them on the board of directors. How about a corporate membership without voting rights?
      - steveklabnik 6y ago
        Right, but the structure is a secondary concern, in that you're concerned about the structure because it enables particular actions. What kind of vote are you worried about?
        yannoninator 6y ago
        > Right, but the structure is a secondary concern, If it was the primary concern we wouldn't be having this conversation, lots of foundations have this structure. Right now, it is more likely that Facebook would get on the board before I can even donate.
impulser_ 6y ago
Well Google does run and control the largest Java platform in the world by far. I think it would be a good thing to have them on your side when you are developing a language that interoperate with Java.
- pjmlp 6y ago
  One would think, yet Android Java is stuck in a Java 8 subset with cherry picked features from OpenJDK.

high_density 6y ago

well Google's using all three in different ways... and another trend on prog. langs: they're becoming more and more similar feature-wise (eg. pattern matching)

yannoninator 6y ago
> well Google's using all three in different ways... So that justifies giving them a seat at the board of directors and not just a sponsorship? Apple and Facebook both use Rust but I don't see anything about them being on the board (at least Facebook for now), the least I expect is sponsorship.
- ta988 6y ago
  Google contributes a lot to Kotlin though. So they are not just sponsors.
  - yannoninator 6y ago
    Interesting perspective, so just like Rust then? Seems like Google can just buy board seats then.
    - ta988 6y ago
      If you mean by dedicating workforce (which costs money, and a lot for them because of their salaries policies) they are buying a seat? Yes. The same way a major contributor (not just code, but doc, funding, community building...) to a FOSS project often has more power on the decisions than users. Now I would be unhappy to see a company that just pours millions in a project, gets to take decisions but doesn't do anything else to make the project better. But I don't believe that's the case here.
      - yannoninator 6y ago
        You can do all of this without getting a board seat. It seems we are all OK with allowing this to happen, but we shall see.
- dieortin 6y ago
  I’m curious, what does Apple use Rust for?
  - steveklabnik 6y ago
    They were hiring for their storage and networking groups, but that’s all we know.
- chuckSu 6y ago
  We get it... you hate google

ta988 6y ago

I understand that side (and I'm personally against Google's behavior, hegemony and influence on almost everything). But Google is one of the few companies that gives back to projects they use. You can't say that of many other companies that use tools and make sure they never contribute back (either financially or as code). As long as they don't put their adcrap in any of those languages or the things around them...

yannoninator 6y ago
> But Google is one of the few companies that gives back to projects they use. Apple gives back to open source projects. Isn't Swift open source as well as LLVM and Webkit? Makes sense because they made them and a long time user of them.
- ta988 6y ago
  I didn't say some other companies don't give back either If you compare the number of companies using a project and how many contribute, you will likely only need one hand to count the later...
  - yannoninator 6y ago
    I don't think this is a good thing in the long term, a conflict of interest can arise, then Google would pull out. But then again, I guess I have no choice to accept this future we've put ourselves in. At least I can as an individual give back to Kotlin, no wait...
- arusahni 6y ago
  WebKit has to be open source because it's a KHTML fork.
  - cwzwarich 6y ago
    This isn't actually true. KHTML is LGPL 2.0, so you can release source code for the pieces you modified and binary blobs for the rest. WebKit proper (as opposed to WebCore, which was based on KHTML, and JavaScriptCore, which was based on KJS) was originally not open source.

blacktriangle 6y ago

I agree with your general Google paranoia, but in this case I'm okay with it since Google is easily the number 1 user of Kotlin thanks to its roll in making Android development infinitely more productive.

yannoninator 6y ago
Jane Street is the No. 1 user of OCaml for a very long time, although sponsoring it, they don't have a board seat on the OCaml Foundation. You don't need to provide a board seat to any company that tries to throw money at you, just because they use your language. Just make them a sponsor, and there are examples of this.

steveklabnik 6y ago

What is your specific dislike about Google on the Rust Foundation board?

yannoninator 6y ago
Steve, I don't understand why Google, Microsoft and AWS et. al are on a board of this new foundation. Who had a say on this decision? And the special guest is Huawei as well just because they use Rust in some way. I'd rather have them sponsor Rust without giving them too much control by placing them on the board.
- steveklabnik 6y ago
  The foundation was created as a project of the core team. Nobody was a "special guest." All parties agreed to the terms. That's what the founders of an organization does. Again, specifically: what control are you worried about? I suspect that you think the foundation has powers it does not have.
  - yannoninator 6y ago
    It is the structure that I am concerned about. Again, I'd rather have them just sponsor Rust, why wasn't a gold or platinum sponsorship like structure considered without placing them on the board of directors. How about a corporate membership without voting rights?
    - steveklabnik 6y ago
      Right, but the structure is a secondary concern, in that you're concerned about the structure because it enables particular actions. What kind of vote are you worried about?
      - yannoninator 6y ago
        > Right, but the structure is a secondary concern, If it was the primary concern we wouldn't be having this conversation, lots of foundations have this structure. Right now, it is more likely that Facebook would get on the board before I can even donate.

impulser_ 6y ago

Well Google does run and control the largest Java platform in the world by far. I think it would be a good thing to have them on your side when you are developing a language that interoperate with Java.

pjmlp 6y ago
One would think, yet Android Java is stuck in a Java 8 subset with cherry picked features from OpenJDK.