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That's not what he said. Chiropractic is a sham because it isn't science; the scientific method fails to show evidence that chiropractic treatments are effectiv

That's not what he said. Chiropractic is a sham because it isn't science; the scientific method fails to show evidence that chiropractic treatments are effective. "If alternative medicine worked it would be called 'medicine'"

h0l0cube 6y ago
Not disagreeing about chiropractors but... > "If alternative medicine worked it would be called 'medicine'" This seems a bit simplistic. There is some scope for exploration of new ideas in medicine, and many ideas may go untested until after they see adoption in the community. They then might go through a double blinded trial (or several) that doesn't reveal any benefit beyond placebo, but even then, it's worth noting that some placebos work better than others, and likely placebos work differently for each individual. So for something like pain, which can be controlled somewhat by psychological intervention, a better placebo could have merit. But also, it could be found that some 'alternative medicines' supported by anecdata become scientifically validated interventions. Not saying that unproven interventions should be thrust upon naive patients, but there are many willing and desperate people who've tried mainstream therapies without success
- yarcob 6y ago
  > desperate people who've tried mainstream therapies without success It would be wonderful if we could help desperate people without lying about the expected outcome of alternative treatment. I don't think anybody will complain if you say something like "maybe you will find this medidation technique makes it easier to deal with your pain". The problem is when people say "This technique will cure your pain. You only need to give me 5000€. Also, don't bother continuing with chemo, it just interferes with your natural healing powers."
  - h0l0cube 6y ago
    I don't think it has to be this way, or that is necessarily the norm. For example, in most countries you can sit as many 10-day Vipassana meditation courses as you like with zero obligation to pay. I did though, because I'd been suffering with debilitating whole body eczema since I was born, where the most effective treatment was corticosteroids. I've been free of this burden for years now. No-one told me it would cure my ills, and I would never have been prescribed this by my GP or dermatologist. Likewise, I would say to anyone YMMV and meditation isn't a panacea. There are definitely fraudsters out there, but there's doctors who prescribe an ineffectual or even harmful medication for kick-backs, such as 'seminars' which are basically paid-for vacations. So keep in mind that conventional medicine isn't the paragon of ethics either
    - yarcob 6y ago
      I agree with you and I want to make it clear that I don't think meditation itself is fraud. I'm pretty sure meditation is an effective way to deal with stress. It also sounds plausible that reducing stress would help with skin problems -- I think it's pretty much consensus that neurodermatitis can be triggered by stress. Another example are IR heat lamps: they were often used to help with joint pain. I don't know how effective they are, but at least they feel good. In my opinion, there's nothing wrong with buying a heat lamp and using it. But someone I know was sold one of these lamps as a cure for her cancer, for about 100x the normal price of such lamps. There is no way a fancy lamp is going to help when the surgery failed. People will pay anything for a glimmer of hope, and peddlers of "alternative" treatments prey on this desperation. That's the problem with alternative medicine.
      - h0l0cube 6y ago
        > I think it's pretty much consensus that neurodermatitis can be triggered by stress. No offense intended, but you're a little out of your depth here. Keep in mind I had this for decades and thought of everything you could think of, and more. And yes, stress makes it worse, but quitting work and pretty much eliminating any stress from my life, didn't fix it. > But someone I know was sold one of these lamps as a cure for her cancer, for about 100x the normal price of such lamps. That's a bummer of a story. As I said, I wouldn't say this is the norm for alternative therapies. > That's the problem with alternative medicine. It is certainly a problem that exists within 'alternative medicine'. There are fewer check and balances, and government oversight, as per the traditional medical establishment, and there's nonsense like homeopathy, but unscrupulous things happen in conventional medicine too. Like say, trying to fix psychological issues with chemical interventions that aren't all that efficacious, or addictive pain meds that lead to overdoses. Conventional medicine of course has plenty of merit, and is often backed up by rigorous clinical studies, but I'd also argue there's plenty of helpful encounters with 'alternative medicine'. I think also helps to have some epistemic humility, and that in order to be truly 'scientific', alternative therapies should be taken seriously, and studied properly, before they are dismissed... and yes, fraud is a problem that should be taken seriously too.
- gruez 6y ago
  >but even then, it's worth noting that some placebos work better than others, and likely placebos work differently for each individual. So for something like pain, which can be controlled somewhat by psychological intervention, a better placebo could have merit. Do you think it's ethical for manufacturers to advertise sugar pills as real drugs being able to treat illness, even though their effects are purely placebo?
  - h0l0cube 6y ago
    I'll quote myself > Not saying that unproven interventions should be thrust upon naive patients,

h0l0cube 6y ago

Not disagreeing about chiropractors but... > "If alternative medicine worked it would be called 'medicine'" This seems a bit simplistic. There is some scope for exploration of new ideas in medicine, and many ideas may go untested until after they see adoption in the community. They then might go through a double blinded trial (or several) that doesn't reveal any benefit beyond placebo, but even then, it's worth noting that some placebos work better than others, and likely placebos work differently for each individual. So for something like pain, which can be controlled somewhat by psychological intervention, a better placebo could have merit. But also, it could be found that some 'alternative medicines' supported by anecdata become scientifically validated interventions. Not saying that unproven interventions should be thrust upon naive patients, but there are many willing and desperate people who've tried mainstream therapies without success

yarcob 6y ago
> desperate people who've tried mainstream therapies without success It would be wonderful if we could help desperate people without lying about the expected outcome of alternative treatment. I don't think anybody will complain if you say something like "maybe you will find this medidation technique makes it easier to deal with your pain". The problem is when people say "This technique will cure your pain. You only need to give me 5000€. Also, don't bother continuing with chemo, it just interferes with your natural healing powers."
- h0l0cube 6y ago
  I don't think it has to be this way, or that is necessarily the norm. For example, in most countries you can sit as many 10-day Vipassana meditation courses as you like with zero obligation to pay. I did though, because I'd been suffering with debilitating whole body eczema since I was born, where the most effective treatment was corticosteroids. I've been free of this burden for years now. No-one told me it would cure my ills, and I would never have been prescribed this by my GP or dermatologist. Likewise, I would say to anyone YMMV and meditation isn't a panacea. There are definitely fraudsters out there, but there's doctors who prescribe an ineffectual or even harmful medication for kick-backs, such as 'seminars' which are basically paid-for vacations. So keep in mind that conventional medicine isn't the paragon of ethics either
  - yarcob 6y ago
    I agree with you and I want to make it clear that I don't think meditation itself is fraud. I'm pretty sure meditation is an effective way to deal with stress. It also sounds plausible that reducing stress would help with skin problems -- I think it's pretty much consensus that neurodermatitis can be triggered by stress. Another example are IR heat lamps: they were often used to help with joint pain. I don't know how effective they are, but at least they feel good. In my opinion, there's nothing wrong with buying a heat lamp and using it. But someone I know was sold one of these lamps as a cure for her cancer, for about 100x the normal price of such lamps. There is no way a fancy lamp is going to help when the surgery failed. People will pay anything for a glimmer of hope, and peddlers of "alternative" treatments prey on this desperation. That's the problem with alternative medicine.
    - h0l0cube 6y ago
      > I think it's pretty much consensus that neurodermatitis can be triggered by stress. No offense intended, but you're a little out of your depth here. Keep in mind I had this for decades and thought of everything you could think of, and more. And yes, stress makes it worse, but quitting work and pretty much eliminating any stress from my life, didn't fix it. > But someone I know was sold one of these lamps as a cure for her cancer, for about 100x the normal price of such lamps. That's a bummer of a story. As I said, I wouldn't say this is the norm for alternative therapies. > That's the problem with alternative medicine. It is certainly a problem that exists within 'alternative medicine'. There are fewer check and balances, and government oversight, as per the traditional medical establishment, and there's nonsense like homeopathy, but unscrupulous things happen in conventional medicine too. Like say, trying to fix psychological issues with chemical interventions that aren't all that efficacious, or addictive pain meds that lead to overdoses. Conventional medicine of course has plenty of merit, and is often backed up by rigorous clinical studies, but I'd also argue there's plenty of helpful encounters with 'alternative medicine'. I think also helps to have some epistemic humility, and that in order to be truly 'scientific', alternative therapies should be taken seriously, and studied properly, before they are dismissed... and yes, fraud is a problem that should be taken seriously too.
gruez 6y ago
>but even then, it's worth noting that some placebos work better than others, and likely placebos work differently for each individual. So for something like pain, which can be controlled somewhat by psychological intervention, a better placebo could have merit. Do you think it's ethical for manufacturers to advertise sugar pills as real drugs being able to treat illness, even though their effects are purely placebo?
- h0l0cube 6y ago
  I'll quote myself > Not saying that unproven interventions should be thrust upon naive patients,