5 ms·

That would be tremendously unfair to working people in or around SF, especially those making $50k or less. That in itself isn't a reason not to raise a bunch of

That would be tremendously unfair to working people in or around SF, especially those making $50k or less. That in itself isn't a reason not to raise a bunch of people out of poverty, but what evidence is there that homeless people would move out? One could just as easily argue that most would blow the money on drugs and/or wait around for next year's $50k. Also, is it really a good idea to defund all the programs that this $50k/person pays for in order to turn it into cash handouts? My understanding is that a majority of homeless people are homeless because of an inability to manage their finances and their life, whether we think that's any fault of their own or not. Handing out cash isn't going to fix these people's childhoods, drug addictions, etc. The real way to deal with homelessness is to address the core problems: a poor educational & economic outlook for both young and old, and a thriving underground economy for hard, addictive drugs. These two fuel homelessness, poverty, crime, and child abuse. Watch Mark Laita's Soft White Underbelly: much of this generation may be beyond hope, but the next generation might be helped before they arrive.

titzer 6y ago
I've heard this "unfair" argument since forever. You know what's tremendously unfair? Mental illness. And homeless are vastly more likely to suffer from mental illness. I'm sorry, but these people are actually suffering and need help. They need help. What part of that is so hard to internalize? And I've heard soooo many people argue "you know what the real cause of homeless is, right? X!" And then, "no, the real core problem is X's cause!" And then, "no, it's Y that is to blame!" And then "well ever since Z happened, we can't do W". And on and on...an unending stream of excuses, a mountain of reasons to not do anything about it, to not spend any money on it, and certainly not to actually study the problem. Instead, it's just more punishment for being stupid or poor and blame. Because everything else is unfair to those working saps. You know what might actually have half a chance of solving homelessness? Giving a damn about them. Not arguing over how fair this or that is, not quibbling about core reasons, putting things off until the unfixable things get fixed. GIVE A DAMN.
- idrios 6y ago
  Serious question: is there a program that you would recommend donating to to help combat homelessness?
  - titzer 6y ago
    Support any local homeless shelter, soup kitchen, food donation drive, etc.
- HomeDeLaPot 6y ago
  Okay, we're in agreement there. Homeless people's problems by and large aren't their fault. Certainly the solution isn't pointing fingers at them. I guess the main thing I'm trying to say is that I take issue with the parent comment. I think it would be a huge, absurd mistake to take the funding for programs that meet material needs and instead give it directly to people with mental illnesses, drug addictions, and other issues. If these people were in shape to handle money, they'd likely have some. They need help, and cash is not help. So... what exactly do you mean by "giving a damn?"
  - titzer 6y ago
    Volunteer at a soup kitchen, donate to a homeless shelter, donate food, clothing. The long term change that needs to happen is that we need to get back to paying slightly higher taxes and hiring more social workers.
anon_tor_12345 6y ago
>That would be tremendously unfair to working people in or around SF, especially those making $50k or less how is it unfair to miss out on something that you were never promised/offered/entitled to in the first place? that's like saying it's unfair to ... everyone ... when a poor person wins the lottery. >to address the core problems: a poor educational & economic outlook for both young and old really? i thought the core problem of the homeless is that they are without a home? isn't it right there in the word?
- caddemon 6y ago
  A pretty large percentage of homeless people have severe mental illness [1]. Most people in that boat are not going to benefit much from being handed 50K without active support/guidance. But yeah it goes beyond "education", they need serious medical help. [1] https://www.health.harvard.edu/newsletter_article/The_homeless_mentally_ill https://www.health.harvard.edu/newsletter_article/The_homele...
  - boringg 6y ago
    A major contributor of the California homeless problem has been supposed to be tied to the de-institutionalization of many people of mental health institutions back in the 60s - its been a sad state of affairs since then. A patchwork of policy with good intentions but poor execution and funding. (https://www.kqed.org/news/11209729/did-the-emptying-of-mental-hospitals-contribute-to-homelessness-here https://www.kqed.org/news/11209729/did-the-emptying-of-menta...)
- HomeDeLaPot 6y ago
  I started drafting a sincere reply, but I don't think you're arguing in good faith. What are you suggesting, that we give homes to homeless people? That's perfectly fine, then just say that.
  - anon_tor_12345 6y ago
    >I started drafting a sincere reply, but I don't think you're arguing in good faith. what is bad faith about taking someone's claims at face value? your claims are 1) 50k distribution to homeless people is unfair to people making less than 50k 2) the core issue of homelessness is a-bunch-of-things–none-of-which-is-being-without-a-home >What are you suggesting, that we give homes to homeless people? i'm not suggesting anything. i'm simply pointing out that your claims are vacuously false given some very obvious counterpoints. but let's "faithfully engage" with your premise; norway has the lowest homelessness rate in the world. what do they do? 1) Reduce eviction petitions by 50% and eviction itself by 30% 2) Prevent individuals recently released from prison or a treatment institution from requiring temporary housing 3) Improve the quality of overnight shelters 4) Limit temporary housing stays to less than three months 5) Ensure safe rental housing for families with children 6) Limit temporary housing to exceptional circumstances, with these arrangements not exceeding three months >The 2014 strategy plans to achieve these goals by providing assistance to individuals shifting from temporary to permanent housing, assistance in obtaining a suitable home within an insecure housing market, preventing evictions and social innovation." note that all of these policies revolve around (unsurprisingly) homes. [1] https://borgenproject.org/homelessness-in-norway/ https://borgenproject.org/homelessness-in-norway/

titzer 6y ago

I've heard this "unfair" argument since forever. You know what's tremendously unfair? Mental illness. And homeless are vastly more likely to suffer from mental illness. I'm sorry, but these people are actually suffering and need help. They need help. What part of that is so hard to internalize? And I've heard soooo many people argue "you know what the real cause of homeless is, right? X!" And then, "no, the real core problem is X's cause!" And then, "no, it's Y that is to blame!" And then "well ever since Z happened, we can't do W". And on and on...an unending stream of excuses, a mountain of reasons to not do anything about it, to not spend any money on it, and certainly not to actually study the problem. Instead, it's just more punishment for being stupid or poor and blame. Because everything else is unfair to those working saps. You know what might actually have half a chance of solving homelessness? Giving a damn about them. Not arguing over how fair this or that is, not quibbling about core reasons, putting things off until the unfixable things get fixed. GIVE A DAMN.

idrios 6y ago
Serious question: is there a program that you would recommend donating to to help combat homelessness?
- titzer 6y ago
  Support any local homeless shelter, soup kitchen, food donation drive, etc.
HomeDeLaPot 6y ago
Okay, we're in agreement there. Homeless people's problems by and large aren't their fault. Certainly the solution isn't pointing fingers at them. I guess the main thing I'm trying to say is that I take issue with the parent comment. I think it would be a huge, absurd mistake to take the funding for programs that meet material needs and instead give it directly to people with mental illnesses, drug addictions, and other issues. If these people were in shape to handle money, they'd likely have some. They need help, and cash is not help. So... what exactly do you mean by "giving a damn?"
- titzer 6y ago
  Volunteer at a soup kitchen, donate to a homeless shelter, donate food, clothing. The long term change that needs to happen is that we need to get back to paying slightly higher taxes and hiring more social workers.

anon_tor_12345 6y ago

>That would be tremendously unfair to working people in or around SF, especially those making $50k or less how is it unfair to miss out on something that you were never promised/offered/entitled to in the first place? that's like saying it's unfair to ... everyone ... when a poor person wins the lottery. >to address the core problems: a poor educational & economic outlook for both young and old really? i thought the core problem of the homeless is that they are without a home? isn't it right there in the word?

caddemon 6y ago
A pretty large percentage of homeless people have severe mental illness [1]. Most people in that boat are not going to benefit much from being handed 50K without active support/guidance. But yeah it goes beyond "education", they need serious medical help. [1] https://www.health.harvard.edu/newsletter_article/The_homeless_mentally_ill https://www.health.harvard.edu/newsletter_article/The_homele...
- boringg 6y ago
  A major contributor of the California homeless problem has been supposed to be tied to the de-institutionalization of many people of mental health institutions back in the 60s - its been a sad state of affairs since then. A patchwork of policy with good intentions but poor execution and funding. (https://www.kqed.org/news/11209729/did-the-emptying-of-mental-hospitals-contribute-to-homelessness-here https://www.kqed.org/news/11209729/did-the-emptying-of-menta...)
HomeDeLaPot 6y ago
I started drafting a sincere reply, but I don't think you're arguing in good faith. What are you suggesting, that we give homes to homeless people? That's perfectly fine, then just say that.
- anon_tor_12345 6y ago
  >I started drafting a sincere reply, but I don't think you're arguing in good faith. what is bad faith about taking someone's claims at face value? your claims are 1) 50k distribution to homeless people is unfair to people making less than 50k 2) the core issue of homelessness is a-bunch-of-things–none-of-which-is-being-without-a-home >What are you suggesting, that we give homes to homeless people? i'm not suggesting anything. i'm simply pointing out that your claims are vacuously false given some very obvious counterpoints. but let's "faithfully engage" with your premise; norway has the lowest homelessness rate in the world. what do they do? 1) Reduce eviction petitions by 50% and eviction itself by 30% 2) Prevent individuals recently released from prison or a treatment institution from requiring temporary housing 3) Improve the quality of overnight shelters 4) Limit temporary housing stays to less than three months 5) Ensure safe rental housing for families with children 6) Limit temporary housing to exceptional circumstances, with these arrangements not exceeding three months >The 2014 strategy plans to achieve these goals by providing assistance to individuals shifting from temporary to permanent housing, assistance in obtaining a suitable home within an insecure housing market, preventing evictions and social innovation." note that all of these policies revolve around (unsurprisingly) homes. [1] https://borgenproject.org/homelessness-in-norway/ https://borgenproject.org/homelessness-in-norway/