4 ms·

> And if somebody steals your coin, you can go through courts and banks to get it back. If somebody steals your crypto and you know her/his identity, you can s

by knocte 6y ago

> And if somebody steals your coin, you can go through courts and banks to get it back. If somebody steals your crypto and you know her/his identity, you can still go through courts to get it back (provided you are paying your taxes; which you can pay today in crypto in some jurisdictions). Now, before you tell me: but most of the time when someone steals your crypto you don't know who is it. Well: you need better IT security/know-how (same as when people were starting to use the internet on the late-80s or 90s). PS: Cryptocurrency is not about not paying taxes. In fact I think taxes would be easier to collect if every merchant implemented this payment system.

whoisburbansky 6y ago
Saying crypto isn’t about taxes sidesteps the most obvious way in which the dollar has any real value at all, which is that the IRS only accepts dollars, which has nothing to do with merchants per se, and more to do with the fact that the government can throw you in jail for not having enough dollars.
- knocte 6y ago
  That will be a moot point soon, considering that even if converting bitcoin to USD is not that difficult anyway, some places (read: not merchants, see link) will just convert it for you automatically when taking your payment, e.g. https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/lia0ns/wow_miami_mayor_francis_suarez_just_got_miami/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/lia0ns/wow_miami_m... BTW I had my doubts about if it's true that the state can incarcerate you for not paying taxes, and it turns out that if you are considered a person to be in a state of bankruptcy, some laws such as the 14th Amendment prevent you to get jailed. Read more about this here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debtors%27_prison#Modern_debtors'_prisons_(1970%E2%80%93current) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debtors%27_prison#Modern_debto...
  - XorNot 6y ago
    The state will send you to prison for lying about the taxes you owe. You can be massively in-debt for taxes, but the debt has to be a matter of public record. But you're missing the point about "automatic conversion": the USD has to come from somewhere. Converting from BTC isn't transmutation - the BTC is sold for USD. The transaction happens in USD and must come from available USD for BTC sellers.
    - knocte 6y ago
      > But you're missing the point about "automatic conversion": the USD has to come from somewhere. Converting from BTC isn't transmutation - the BTC is sold for USD. The transaction happens in USD and must come from available USD for BTC sellers. So what? So long as the USD exists, there will always be liquidity in the BTCUSD orderbooks. And the conversion can be done by the state itself when getting paid (see my link about Miami).
      - notahacker 6y ago
        > So what? So long as the USD exists, there will always be liquidity in the BTCUSD orderbooks. There is only liquidity in the order book if more people wish to obtain BTC in return for USD at the price you wish to sell at than wish to sell at that price. There is no particular property of Bitcoin that ensures this will be the case (the "it will hold its value because people will want it as a store of value" reasoning is entirely circular). On the other hand, the USD has the property of being legally guaranteed to be able to settle 1USD worth of debt (and the design of the financial system ensures there will always be people who need dollars to discharge their debts). So it's "backed" by mountains of debt. 46k USD has the unique property of being sure to be able to pay a $46k bill on a future date. $46k worth of anything else relies on your ability to swap it for at least $46k actual dollars closer to that date. Some of those non-dollar things have other useful properties like being able to live in them that compensate for the downside risk of losing money in a future exchange, others directly pay you coupons and/or have collateral associated with them. A BTC has no consumption benefit, legal claims on anything or coupon payment to compensate you for the risk you might not be able to exchange it for $46k when that bill is due - it's as pure an example of "fiat" creation of assets not backed by anything at all as you're ever likely to see. The only thing it's really got going for it is being more durable than, say, $46k of fruit, but that applies to a lot of other physical and financial products.
        beagle3 6y ago
        All you say is true, but it is also true if you replace BTC with EUR. It’s just a statement about the non-canonical currency, nothing to do with Bitcoin.

by knocte 6y ago

whoisburbansky 6y ago

Saying crypto isn’t about taxes sidesteps the most obvious way in which the dollar has any real value at all, which is that the IRS only accepts dollars, which has nothing to do with merchants per se, and more to do with the fact that the government can throw you in jail for not having enough dollars.

knocte 6y ago
That will be a moot point soon, considering that even if converting bitcoin to USD is not that difficult anyway, some places (read: not merchants, see link) will just convert it for you automatically when taking your payment, e.g. https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/lia0ns/wow_miami_mayor_francis_suarez_just_got_miami/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/lia0ns/wow_miami_m... BTW I had my doubts about if it's true that the state can incarcerate you for not paying taxes, and it turns out that if you are considered a person to be in a state of bankruptcy, some laws such as the 14th Amendment prevent you to get jailed. Read more about this here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debtors%27_prison#Modern_debtors'_prisons_(1970%E2%80%93current) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debtors%27_prison#Modern_debto...
- XorNot 6y ago
  The state will send you to prison for lying about the taxes you owe. You can be massively in-debt for taxes, but the debt has to be a matter of public record. But you're missing the point about "automatic conversion": the USD has to come from somewhere. Converting from BTC isn't transmutation - the BTC is sold for USD. The transaction happens in USD and must come from available USD for BTC sellers.
  - knocte 6y ago
    > But you're missing the point about "automatic conversion": the USD has to come from somewhere. Converting from BTC isn't transmutation - the BTC is sold for USD. The transaction happens in USD and must come from available USD for BTC sellers. So what? So long as the USD exists, there will always be liquidity in the BTCUSD orderbooks. And the conversion can be done by the state itself when getting paid (see my link about Miami).
    - notahacker 6y ago
      > So what? So long as the USD exists, there will always be liquidity in the BTCUSD orderbooks. There is only liquidity in the order book if more people wish to obtain BTC in return for USD at the price you wish to sell at than wish to sell at that price. There is no particular property of Bitcoin that ensures this will be the case (the "it will hold its value because people will want it as a store of value" reasoning is entirely circular). On the other hand, the USD has the property of being legally guaranteed to be able to settle 1USD worth of debt (and the design of the financial system ensures there will always be people who need dollars to discharge their debts). So it's "backed" by mountains of debt. 46k USD has the unique property of being sure to be able to pay a $46k bill on a future date. $46k worth of anything else relies on your ability to swap it for at least $46k actual dollars closer to that date. Some of those non-dollar things have other useful properties like being able to live in them that compensate for the downside risk of losing money in a future exchange, others directly pay you coupons and/or have collateral associated with them. A BTC has no consumption benefit, legal claims on anything or coupon payment to compensate you for the risk you might not be able to exchange it for $46k when that bill is due - it's as pure an example of "fiat" creation of assets not backed by anything at all as you're ever likely to see. The only thing it's really got going for it is being more durable than, say, $46k of fruit, but that applies to a lot of other physical and financial products.
      - beagle3 6y ago
        All you say is true, but it is also true if you replace BTC with EUR. It’s just a statement about the non-canonical currency, nothing to do with Bitcoin.