4 ms·

Not many good things are done in the name of survival. In fact being on the edge of survival is much more likely to drive you to crime through desperation. Take

by Jochim 6y ago

Not many good things are done in the name of survival. In fact being on the edge of survival is much more likely to drive you to crime through desperation. Take care of these needs on the other hand and people start spending time on things they care about. Open source is a great example of this, if software engineers were struggling to put a roof over their heads and food on the table do you think we'd have the level of open source ecosystem we have today? The very fact we're both paid enough and have enough free time to contribute to that work has had produced great benefits for society. The goal of UBI is simply to extend that same freedom to everyone. Not everyone will contribute back, but we'd free up a lot of people to create art, businesses, software etc. that would otherwise have been behind a fast food counter or stuck in an office.

rowanG077 6y ago
I don't think most people would ever get as far as being able to create anything worthwhile without a job forcing them to work. It's easy to see in young people who haven't found the right job. They waste their lives plating video games or netflixing all day. Without to pressure to do anything no open source developer will be born out of this. No artist will emerge. They will Just stay in their comfy situation. I've seen it dozen of times in my social circle and even with myself. A job provides perspective and can show you that you are truly worth something before you even believe it yourself. I'm quite certain that I and many of my peers would still play CS and whatever the current MMO is all day if I was never forced to get a job.
- solosoyokaze 6y ago
  Human history would disagree with you. We've had art as long as people have been able to create it. There's nothing wrong with playing MMOs all day if that's what you want to do. In fact, you'd be providing social currency for the developer who created it, motivating them to create more art. Also, don't forget that most people will still want to attract a mate, which is more of a positive motivation that trying not to starve to death.
  - rowanG077 6y ago
    And for as long as we had human history we had to work to survive. Also I'm not saying there would be no art. I'm saying the quantity of people doing art would sharply decrease. There is nothing wrong with playing video games all day. Except that in general it doesn't truly make people happy. I would say its a local maximum. Attracting a mate is allready too hard for many people right now. Going jobless and ensuring a lot of people will never find a reason to belong will probably that issue only worse.
    - solosoyokaze 6y ago
      I disagree that the majority of jobs give people happiness or a reason to live. Like you say, it's been a necessity for all of human history to work. Only now it's not, which is why so much work is meaningless. Alleviating the threat of death due to unemployment is going to be a positive for most people.
      - rowanG077 6y ago
        You don't need UBI for "Alleviating the threat of death due to unemployment". You can have welfare systems that encourage you do get a job and only pay the minimum for you to live. These systems allready exists in some countries. That's not what UBI is about.
        solosoyokaze 6y ago
        It’s definitely part of what it’s about. No one should have to struggle to survive or work an exploitative job. I think that’s where we’re at as a species. We should be able to provide baseline survival to all.
- Jochim 6y ago
  > A job provides perspective and can show you that you are truly worth something before you even believe it yourself. People feeling worthless for not having a job is entirely down to society telling them that they're worthless if they don't have a job. This is exacerbated by the fact that not having having a job currently adds a great deal of stress by putting you in a position where you're highly likely to lose food and shelter. > I don't think most people would ever get as far as being able to create anything worthwhile without a job forcing them to work. It's easy to see in young people who haven't found the right job. They waste their lives plating video games or netflixing all day. Without to pressure to do anything no open source developer will be born out of this. No artist will emerge. They will Just stay in their comfy situation. I think you're vastly underestimating how creative most people can be and I find the fact that you believe the only path to self worth is by selling your labour to someone else very sad. There are plenty of people with ambition to create out there that are instead busy flipping burgers. The current work oriented approach does a really good job of suppressing the expression of that creativity, but it still doesn't manage to get rid of it. There are millions of artists, musicians, and hobbyists churning out bland corporate shite instead of the work they'd rather be doing and we'd be better off if they were free to pursue that instead. Of course not everyone would immediately go out and start contributing new things, but I don't see how you can imply it wouldn't lead to a great number of more people doing so.

by Jochim 6y ago

rowanG077 6y ago

I don't think most people would ever get as far as being able to create anything worthwhile without a job forcing them to work. It's easy to see in young people who haven't found the right job. They waste their lives plating video games or netflixing all day. Without to pressure to do anything no open source developer will be born out of this. No artist will emerge. They will Just stay in their comfy situation. I've seen it dozen of times in my social circle and even with myself. A job provides perspective and can show you that you are truly worth something before you even believe it yourself. I'm quite certain that I and many of my peers would still play CS and whatever the current MMO is all day if I was never forced to get a job.

solosoyokaze 6y ago
Human history would disagree with you. We've had art as long as people have been able to create it. There's nothing wrong with playing MMOs all day if that's what you want to do. In fact, you'd be providing social currency for the developer who created it, motivating them to create more art. Also, don't forget that most people will still want to attract a mate, which is more of a positive motivation that trying not to starve to death.
- rowanG077 6y ago
  And for as long as we had human history we had to work to survive. Also I'm not saying there would be no art. I'm saying the quantity of people doing art would sharply decrease. There is nothing wrong with playing video games all day. Except that in general it doesn't truly make people happy. I would say its a local maximum. Attracting a mate is allready too hard for many people right now. Going jobless and ensuring a lot of people will never find a reason to belong will probably that issue only worse.
  - solosoyokaze 6y ago
    I disagree that the majority of jobs give people happiness or a reason to live. Like you say, it's been a necessity for all of human history to work. Only now it's not, which is why so much work is meaningless. Alleviating the threat of death due to unemployment is going to be a positive for most people.
    - rowanG077 6y ago
      You don't need UBI for "Alleviating the threat of death due to unemployment". You can have welfare systems that encourage you do get a job and only pay the minimum for you to live. These systems allready exists in some countries. That's not what UBI is about.
      - solosoyokaze 6y ago
        It’s definitely part of what it’s about. No one should have to struggle to survive or work an exploitative job. I think that’s where we’re at as a species. We should be able to provide baseline survival to all.
Jochim 6y ago
> A job provides perspective and can show you that you are truly worth something before you even believe it yourself. People feeling worthless for not having a job is entirely down to society telling them that they're worthless if they don't have a job. This is exacerbated by the fact that not having having a job currently adds a great deal of stress by putting you in a position where you're highly likely to lose food and shelter. > I don't think most people would ever get as far as being able to create anything worthwhile without a job forcing them to work. It's easy to see in young people who haven't found the right job. They waste their lives plating video games or netflixing all day. Without to pressure to do anything no open source developer will be born out of this. No artist will emerge. They will Just stay in their comfy situation. I think you're vastly underestimating how creative most people can be and I find the fact that you believe the only path to self worth is by selling your labour to someone else very sad. There are plenty of people with ambition to create out there that are instead busy flipping burgers. The current work oriented approach does a really good job of suppressing the expression of that creativity, but it still doesn't manage to get rid of it. There are millions of artists, musicians, and hobbyists churning out bland corporate shite instead of the work they'd rather be doing and we'd be better off if they were free to pursue that instead. Of course not everyone would immediately go out and start contributing new things, but I don't see how you can imply it wouldn't lead to a great number of more people doing so.