9 ms·

Stephen Elop's Nokia Adventure

69 points by wallflower 15y ago

martijn_himself 15y ago
"Elop later told the Salo employees that Google "acted like they'd already won" That is because they have already won. Very few people are buying WP7 phones at the moment (even though big manufacturers have put their weight behind it, think HTC, LG). What would make people buy Nokia phones with WP7? Its camera?
- ghurlman 15y ago
  > That is because they have already won. No, they have a bigger share of the pie, when measured in particular ways right now. It's a long game.
- bakbak 15y ago
  I guess what he meant is how google is over-confidant, non-respecting and may be little bit arrogant ... There is no doubt that Android is big now but it is also true that Nokia is the biggest cell-phone maker and the marriage of these 2 would have been revolutionary ... Google may not regret of this blunder but if MS & Nokia execute well then MS would be laughing for pulling this off ... Also whether critic believe it or not but the TRIO (MS, Nokia and Skype) is a lethal combination in terms of innovation (if planned and executed well) - these 3 can create something very disruptive that Elop is talking about ...
  - mithaler 15y ago
    It's just having a strong negotiating position. It sounds to me like Nokia doesn't want to be "just another Android phone maker". They want to differentiate, and to do that they want Google to do more for them than their other partners (like Microsoft ended up doing). Google has little incentive to do that; Android is already a market success and doesn't need Nokia to make it one. From their perspective, the code is all up on the public repo, and Nokia can take it and release phones whenever they want without even asking. So what exactly is arrogant or over-confident about Google not seeing a need to bend over backwards for Nokia?
    - bakbak 15y ago
      Respect is the most important thing (whether or not deal goes thru) ... Nokia respected Google as one of the largest platform creator but in respond to that they didn't receive (i guess) the equal treatment as a largest phone maker (just because it is going thru bad phase) ...
      - taken11 15y ago
        like respectfully handing over large sums of money?
        bakbak 15y ago
        like respectfully, respect the respect the other person is giving to you , comprende ? :-)
      - lsc 15y ago
        what? we're not gangsters, we're businessmen. If you choose your own ego over the best business decision, you will lose every time.
- radioactive21 15y ago
  Here's more of it. "But Google was riding so high that it essentially refused to negotiate, offering no concessions to Nokia despite its global presence. Elop later told the Salo employees that Google "acted like they'd already won. Apple and Android deserve some real competition." Pretty much he's saying Google acted like Apple in how it views everyone below them.
  - metachris 15y ago
    He tried to negotiate a deal with Google to run Android, but Google refused to give the world's biggest phonemaker any advantages over its smaller partners, meaning Nokia's corps of 11,600 engineers would have next to no ability to add their own innovations to Google's software. "It just didn't feel right," Elop says to the crowd. "We'd be just another company distributing Android..." Sounds kind of fair of Google to not give Nokia special concessions their other Android partners don't get. Nokia could have used Android anyway, just without Maps and the Android market.
    - recoiledsnake 15y ago
      And then fall behind the curve as Google makes new builds available exclusively to partners? Fork it and risk another Meego/Maemo fiasco? Without Google apps and Android Market, its hard to sell a phone. To make the requisite alternate software, it will take a year plus, all while parallelly developing hardware, might be a bit too much even for a huge company like Nokia especially seeing that they seem to lack software dev skills.
- kenjackson 15y ago
  Very few people are buying WP7 phones at the moment (even though big manufacturers have put their weight behind it, think HTC, LG). What would make people buy Nokia phones with WP7? Its camera? Two things: 1) Mango. The WP7 OS actually is probably better than Ice Cream Sandwich, and we'll see with iOS5, but certainly stonger than iOS4. The first rev of WP7 had tons of gaps. They closed pretty much all of them (except tethering) and added stuff others don't have. 2) Nokia still has some of the best phone designers in the world. It's just they had Symbian. Couple WP7/Mango with Nokia and you have fireworks. This early in the game its dangerous to think you already won.
  - martijn_himself 15y ago
    Very good points. I still feel this may not be enough though to catch up and/or convince people to switch from platforms they are comfortable with. Also, why would Nokia bet on one horse, and not follow HTC's example of supporting both WP7 and Android?
    - kenjackson 15y ago
      Also, why would Nokia bet on one horse, and not follow HTC's example of supporting both WP7 and Android? I can give you a billion reasons. :-) Seriously though, while Android is ahead -- even if Nokia doesn't win over a single Android user, there are more ppl getting smartphones for the first time next year than smartphone users in the world today (by estimates). That is the market is growing super fast. So if WP7 can win just 20% of completely new customers. Customers who don't have Android or iPhone -- they'll be about 10% of the market -- and that assumes they win over no converts. If they can convert just 10% of iPhone/Android users that can get them to 15% market share. That's pretty good. It's clear Nokia already tried negotiating with Google and Google was arrogant. I don't expect they'll go back to that well any time soon. And remember they're getting special treatment from MS -- and I don't discount the rumors. I think there is a acquisition possibly in the works. My hope though is we don't actually hear about it until mid 2012.
      - Daniel14 15y ago
- forgottenpaswrd 15y ago
  "acted like they'd already won" This is Elop's interpretation of something probably different: He wanted Google to let them include binary code proprietary from Nokia and Google refused. Oh, and the "negotiations talk" seems to imply that they wanted as much money from Google as they got from MS: Look, we are going to use WP7 if you do not pay us billions of dollars! we are super important, hurry up!!
- rospaya 15y ago
  A lot of people will buy anything with "Nokia" written on it.
pessimizer 15y ago
subtitle: "Market share dwindling, stock cratering, persistent takeover talk. How the CEO is trying to lead Nokia past its epic fail" "Epic fail"? Is this really English to the the demographic that reads Businessweek?
plinkplonk 15y ago
From the article "Elop's first stop is the research and development facility in Tampere, the town that houses most of the MeeGo engineers—many of whom left early as a sign of protest on the day the Microsoft deal was announced. After apologizing for the effect layoffs will have on many—Nokia announced on Apr. 28 that it would lay off 4,000 people by the end of 2012 and transfer 3,000 to Accenture (ACN), which will handle Symbian updates for existing models—Elop implores the attendees to wait before meeting with recruiters from Apple or Google." so he has already decided to lay off thousands of people but wants them to wait till he actually swings the axe and they end up jobless before meeting recruiters? Iow "I plan to fire most of you but please don't try to get another job till I get around to it" Maybe I am just reading this wrong (corrections welcome) but this makes no sense to me.
- recoiledsnake 15y ago
  Do you have experience working in companies where layoffs take place? This is what happens, one fine day, everyone picked for layoffs are informed, the next day there is a company meeting in which the executives claim there are no more layoffs in the near future so that they don't start shopping for jobs. It makes sense because Nokia(as well as any company) would want to keep the best and fire the rest. The problem is that the best have an easier time being lured or hired, so no wonder Elop said what he said. It's just textbook style.
  - bakbak 15y ago
    i have seen even funnier (or say worst) situation where they called a VPs and asked him to select the people to layoff by the end of the week, the VP fought back trying to save jobs of the team members but somehow management forced him to pick maximum number of members whom they then laid off on friday --- come monday they gave pink-slip to the same VP... the person was stunned !!! they didn't laid-off VP for fighting back but it was pre-planned & scripted by HR.
    - tryp 15y ago
      It's _textbook_ HR. You don't want your staff to hate their new manager because their first day was spent handing out pink slips. You make the old manager carry out the reduction, then you get to fire the bad guy.
bakbak 15y ago
"If you live in the U.S., you can't really understand their power," says Paul Jacobs, CEO of chipmaker Qualcomm Very well said ... i guess north-american critics sometime have difficulty in understanding emerging markets and the brands that are popular there - the power of those brands and the market itself is greater than the rest of the world combined ... whoever wins these markets (emerging and yet-to-emerge) will be the ultimate winner (in long term of course).
ansy 15y ago
I wrote this elsewhere, but Elop betting it all on Windows Phone 7 over Android is kind of like backing OS/2 Warp over Windows for desktop machines in the 1990's. Sure, you might have gotten a big check from IBM and OS/2 Warp was technologically better than Windows 3.11, but that isn't enough to make it a smart business move. There is more to a mass market product than that.
toyg 15y ago
Nokia's doom was the deal with Intel, brokered by OPK, which basically dropped Maemo for Moblin and set their plans back two years. Without that, they would have produced at least three Maemo models by now, with big chances of one being a strong competitor. Elop is now trying to make the best of a losing position, but he's too predictable and "corporate" to succeed in the smartphone market. He should have kept silent on the MS deal until he had a working WP7 model, then make the announcement -- give the press a story about a new wonderful gizmo, so that they won't talk about failure and layoffs. As it is now, by the time "Microkia" devices hit the market, share prices will be so low that any Gordon Gekko under the sun will be ready for a takeover.
teyc 15y ago
Here's a barb Elop pulls on Ballmer. "That upsets me—not because some of you are using iPhones, but because only a small number of people are using iPhones. I'd rather people have the intellectual curiosity to understand what we're up against." Compared with this: http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2009/09/ballmer-makes-a-scene-over-employees-iphone.ars http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2009/09/ballmer-makes-... Then he put it on the ground and pretended to stomp on it, before walking away. This kind of reminds me of a criticism of the US towards Afghan insurgents/OBL etc. That they conflate underestimating the opposition with loyalty.

69 points by wallflower 15y ago

"Elop later told the Salo employees that Google "acted like they'd already won" That is because they have already won. Very few people are buying WP7 phones at the moment (even though big manufacturers have put their weight behind it, think HTC, LG). What would make people buy Nokia phones with WP7? Its camera?

ghurlman 15y ago
> That is because they have already won. No, they have a bigger share of the pie, when measured in particular ways right now. It's a long game.
bakbak 15y ago
I guess what he meant is how google is over-confidant, non-respecting and may be little bit arrogant ... There is no doubt that Android is big now but it is also true that Nokia is the biggest cell-phone maker and the marriage of these 2 would have been revolutionary ... Google may not regret of this blunder but if MS & Nokia execute well then MS would be laughing for pulling this off ... Also whether critic believe it or not but the TRIO (MS, Nokia and Skype) is a lethal combination in terms of innovation (if planned and executed well) - these 3 can create something very disruptive that Elop is talking about ...
- mithaler 15y ago
  It's just having a strong negotiating position. It sounds to me like Nokia doesn't want to be "just another Android phone maker". They want to differentiate, and to do that they want Google to do more for them than their other partners (like Microsoft ended up doing). Google has little incentive to do that; Android is already a market success and doesn't need Nokia to make it one. From their perspective, the code is all up on the public repo, and Nokia can take it and release phones whenever they want without even asking. So what exactly is arrogant or over-confident about Google not seeing a need to bend over backwards for Nokia?
  - bakbak 15y ago
    Respect is the most important thing (whether or not deal goes thru) ... Nokia respected Google as one of the largest platform creator but in respond to that they didn't receive (i guess) the equal treatment as a largest phone maker (just because it is going thru bad phase) ...
    - taken11 15y ago
      like respectfully handing over large sums of money?
      - bakbak 15y ago
        like respectfully, respect the respect the other person is giving to you , comprende ? :-)
    - lsc 15y ago
      what? we're not gangsters, we're businessmen. If you choose your own ego over the best business decision, you will lose every time.
radioactive21 15y ago
Here's more of it. "But Google was riding so high that it essentially refused to negotiate, offering no concessions to Nokia despite its global presence. Elop later told the Salo employees that Google "acted like they'd already won. Apple and Android deserve some real competition." Pretty much he's saying Google acted like Apple in how it views everyone below them.
- metachris 15y ago
  He tried to negotiate a deal with Google to run Android, but Google refused to give the world's biggest phonemaker any advantages over its smaller partners, meaning Nokia's corps of 11,600 engineers would have next to no ability to add their own innovations to Google's software. "It just didn't feel right," Elop says to the crowd. "We'd be just another company distributing Android..." Sounds kind of fair of Google to not give Nokia special concessions their other Android partners don't get. Nokia could have used Android anyway, just without Maps and the Android market.
  - recoiledsnake 15y ago
    And then fall behind the curve as Google makes new builds available exclusively to partners? Fork it and risk another Meego/Maemo fiasco? Without Google apps and Android Market, its hard to sell a phone. To make the requisite alternate software, it will take a year plus, all while parallelly developing hardware, might be a bit too much even for a huge company like Nokia especially seeing that they seem to lack software dev skills.
kenjackson 15y ago
Very few people are buying WP7 phones at the moment (even though big manufacturers have put their weight behind it, think HTC, LG). What would make people buy Nokia phones with WP7? Its camera? Two things: 1) Mango. The WP7 OS actually is probably better than Ice Cream Sandwich, and we'll see with iOS5, but certainly stonger than iOS4. The first rev of WP7 had tons of gaps. They closed pretty much all of them (except tethering) and added stuff others don't have. 2) Nokia still has some of the best phone designers in the world. It's just they had Symbian. Couple WP7/Mango with Nokia and you have fireworks. This early in the game its dangerous to think you already won.
- martijn_himself 15y ago
  Very good points. I still feel this may not be enough though to catch up and/or convince people to switch from platforms they are comfortable with. Also, why would Nokia bet on one horse, and not follow HTC's example of supporting both WP7 and Android?
  - kenjackson 15y ago
    Also, why would Nokia bet on one horse, and not follow HTC's example of supporting both WP7 and Android? I can give you a billion reasons. :-) Seriously though, while Android is ahead -- even if Nokia doesn't win over a single Android user, there are more ppl getting smartphones for the first time next year than smartphone users in the world today (by estimates). That is the market is growing super fast. So if WP7 can win just 20% of completely new customers. Customers who don't have Android or iPhone -- they'll be about 10% of the market -- and that assumes they win over no converts. If they can convert just 10% of iPhone/Android users that can get them to 15% market share. That's pretty good. It's clear Nokia already tried negotiating with Google and Google was arrogant. I don't expect they'll go back to that well any time soon. And remember they're getting special treatment from MS -- and I don't discount the rumors. I think there is a acquisition possibly in the works. My hope though is we don't actually hear about it until mid 2012.
    - Daniel14 15y ago
forgottenpaswrd 15y ago
"acted like they'd already won" This is Elop's interpretation of something probably different: He wanted Google to let them include binary code proprietary from Nokia and Google refused. Oh, and the "negotiations talk" seems to imply that they wanted as much money from Google as they got from MS: Look, we are going to use WP7 if you do not pay us billions of dollars! we are super important, hurry up!!
rospaya 15y ago
A lot of people will buy anything with "Nokia" written on it.

pessimizer 15y ago

subtitle: "Market share dwindling, stock cratering, persistent takeover talk. How the CEO is trying to lead Nokia past its epic fail" "Epic fail"? Is this really English to the the demographic that reads Businessweek?

plinkplonk 15y ago

From the article "Elop's first stop is the research and development facility in Tampere, the town that houses most of the MeeGo engineers—many of whom left early as a sign of protest on the day the Microsoft deal was announced. After apologizing for the effect layoffs will have on many—Nokia announced on Apr. 28 that it would lay off 4,000 people by the end of 2012 and transfer 3,000 to Accenture (ACN), which will handle Symbian updates for existing models—Elop implores the attendees to wait before meeting with recruiters from Apple or Google." so he has already decided to lay off thousands of people but wants them to wait till he actually swings the axe and they end up jobless before meeting recruiters? Iow "I plan to fire most of you but please don't try to get another job till I get around to it" Maybe I am just reading this wrong (corrections welcome) but this makes no sense to me.

recoiledsnake 15y ago
Do you have experience working in companies where layoffs take place? This is what happens, one fine day, everyone picked for layoffs are informed, the next day there is a company meeting in which the executives claim there are no more layoffs in the near future so that they don't start shopping for jobs. It makes sense because Nokia(as well as any company) would want to keep the best and fire the rest. The problem is that the best have an easier time being lured or hired, so no wonder Elop said what he said. It's just textbook style.
- bakbak 15y ago
  i have seen even funnier (or say worst) situation where they called a VPs and asked him to select the people to layoff by the end of the week, the VP fought back trying to save jobs of the team members but somehow management forced him to pick maximum number of members whom they then laid off on friday --- come monday they gave pink-slip to the same VP... the person was stunned !!! they didn't laid-off VP for fighting back but it was pre-planned & scripted by HR.
  - tryp 15y ago
    It's _textbook_ HR. You don't want your staff to hate their new manager because their first day was spent handing out pink slips. You make the old manager carry out the reduction, then you get to fire the bad guy.

bakbak 15y ago

"If you live in the U.S., you can't really understand their power," says Paul Jacobs, CEO of chipmaker Qualcomm Very well said ... i guess north-american critics sometime have difficulty in understanding emerging markets and the brands that are popular there - the power of those brands and the market itself is greater than the rest of the world combined ... whoever wins these markets (emerging and yet-to-emerge) will be the ultimate winner (in long term of course).

ansy 15y ago

I wrote this elsewhere, but Elop betting it all on Windows Phone 7 over Android is kind of like backing OS/2 Warp over Windows for desktop machines in the 1990's. Sure, you might have gotten a big check from IBM and OS/2 Warp was technologically better than Windows 3.11, but that isn't enough to make it a smart business move. There is more to a mass market product than that.

toyg 15y ago

Nokia's doom was the deal with Intel, brokered by OPK, which basically dropped Maemo for Moblin and set their plans back two years. Without that, they would have produced at least three Maemo models by now, with big chances of one being a strong competitor. Elop is now trying to make the best of a losing position, but he's too predictable and "corporate" to succeed in the smartphone market. He should have kept silent on the MS deal until he had a working WP7 model, then make the announcement -- give the press a story about a new wonderful gizmo, so that they won't talk about failure and layoffs. As it is now, by the time "Microkia" devices hit the market, share prices will be so low that any Gordon Gekko under the sun will be ready for a takeover.

teyc 15y ago

Here's a barb Elop pulls on Ballmer. "That upsets me—not because some of you are using iPhones, but because only a small number of people are using iPhones. I'd rather people have the intellectual curiosity to understand what we're up against." Compared with this: http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2009/09/ballmer-makes-a-scene-over-employees-iphone.ars http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2009/09/ballmer-makes-... Then he put it on the ground and pretended to stomp on it, before walking away. This kind of reminds me of a criticism of the US towards Afghan insurgents/OBL etc. That they conflate underestimating the opposition with loyalty.