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While I agree with your points I'll add that Dvorak is far from the ultimate layout. For instance just try to type 'ls', which as a command-line user you'll do

by lawn 6y ago

While I agree with your points I'll add that Dvorak is far from the ultimate layout. For instance just try to type 'ls', which as a command-line user you'll do a lot. People are different and will prefer different layouts. Colemak DH is a very popular and very good one, if you dislike using your pinkies the BEAKL style layouts are very good and if you have a split keyboard you might want E on one of the thumbs so RSTHD might be good. There are many, many more and you can also tweak them or create a completely new one. Oh I'll add tenting as a good thing explore.

eimrine 6y ago
Your argument about Dvorak is far from the ultimate layout because of "ls" utility is strange. I think it is really best layout and in regular typing "ls" is rare. If "ls" case bothers you, you can just add an alias. What you can not get in any other layout is alteration of right and left hands, that is what makes Dvorak ultimate.
- lawn 6y ago
  "ls" was just an example. L being a common letter in an awkward position is another, imbalance between the hands a third and other layouts get a lower score on same finger usage (pressing two keys with the same finger right after each other). See this writeup for a bunch of ways you can analyze a layout: https://sites.google.com/alanreiser.com/handsdown#h.u8i88askuf5c https://sites.google.com/alanreiser.com/handsdown#h.u8i88ask... There are many layouts that give you right/left alternation. The BEAKL layouts for example.
  - eimrine 6y ago
    Interesting layout, but my opinion is that pinky keypresses is not so hard as a Beacl's effort grid says. Especially I disagree with placing rare letters on a home row in pinky positions, it is just wrong. I really want to explore the metriks which make Dvorak worse than Workman or Colemak, my experience with those three layouts tells me that something is wrong with those data on the link you have published. For me typing on a keyboard is like a piano playing, if your pinkies move hardly, then you will have hard time playing literally any chord and it is not a piano's problem. But who knows, maybe people with hard moving pinkies want to have their own layout and Beacle is comfortable for them.
    - lawn 6y ago
      Oh I agree with your comments about the pinky. I tried BEAKL-15 for a while but I switched to a modified RSTHD to get more pinky usage (I also use a 5-column layout so I don't press shift or similar with the pinkies either.) RSTHD is another good layout that has this left/right alternation, especially if you move E to the vowel side which I've done. But it does require a keyboard with at least two thumb keys as it has Space on one and E on the other.
Symbiote 6y ago
alias h=ls alias hh='ls -l' Job done. I strongly disagree that Dvorak is "far from the ultimate layout". Compared to Qwerty, the differences between most of these ergonomic layouts is minor, so there's no reason to discourage someone from using Dvorak. My immediate minor criticism of Colemak-DH is typing "the", or specifically "he". It's a "backwards roll" of the fingers: typing ASDF on Qwerty is easier than typing FDSA, but "HE" on Colemak-DH is a common digraph in the wrong direction. (On Dvorak, "THE" is equivalent to typing "KJD" on Qwerty, i.e. the "TH"/"KJ" is in the correct direction.)
- lawn 6y ago
  Yes, compared to Qwerty Dvorak is much better and the difference between "the good" layouts is often minor. I wasn't trying to discourage anyone from trying out Dvorak, or that Colemak is necessarily better, but to say that there are many alternatives and some might be a better fit for your own particular preferences.

by lawn 6y ago

eimrine 6y ago

Your argument about Dvorak is far from the ultimate layout because of "ls" utility is strange. I think it is really best layout and in regular typing "ls" is rare. If "ls" case bothers you, you can just add an alias. What you can not get in any other layout is alteration of right and left hands, that is what makes Dvorak ultimate.

lawn 6y ago
"ls" was just an example. L being a common letter in an awkward position is another, imbalance between the hands a third and other layouts get a lower score on same finger usage (pressing two keys with the same finger right after each other). See this writeup for a bunch of ways you can analyze a layout: https://sites.google.com/alanreiser.com/handsdown#h.u8i88askuf5c https://sites.google.com/alanreiser.com/handsdown#h.u8i88ask... There are many layouts that give you right/left alternation. The BEAKL layouts for example.
- eimrine 6y ago
  Interesting layout, but my opinion is that pinky keypresses is not so hard as a Beacl's effort grid says. Especially I disagree with placing rare letters on a home row in pinky positions, it is just wrong. I really want to explore the metriks which make Dvorak worse than Workman or Colemak, my experience with those three layouts tells me that something is wrong with those data on the link you have published. For me typing on a keyboard is like a piano playing, if your pinkies move hardly, then you will have hard time playing literally any chord and it is not a piano's problem. But who knows, maybe people with hard moving pinkies want to have their own layout and Beacle is comfortable for them.
  - lawn 6y ago
    Oh I agree with your comments about the pinky. I tried BEAKL-15 for a while but I switched to a modified RSTHD to get more pinky usage (I also use a 5-column layout so I don't press shift or similar with the pinkies either.) RSTHD is another good layout that has this left/right alternation, especially if you move E to the vowel side which I've done. But it does require a keyboard with at least two thumb keys as it has Space on one and E on the other.

Symbiote 6y ago

alias h=ls alias hh='ls -l' Job done. I strongly disagree that Dvorak is "far from the ultimate layout". Compared to Qwerty, the differences between most of these ergonomic layouts is minor, so there's no reason to discourage someone from using Dvorak. My immediate minor criticism of Colemak-DH is typing "the", or specifically "he". It's a "backwards roll" of the fingers: typing ASDF on Qwerty is easier than typing FDSA, but "HE" on Colemak-DH is a common digraph in the wrong direction. (On Dvorak, "THE" is equivalent to typing "KJD" on Qwerty, i.e. the "TH"/"KJ" is in the correct direction.)

lawn 6y ago
Yes, compared to Qwerty Dvorak is much better and the difference between "the good" layouts is often minor. I wasn't trying to discourage anyone from trying out Dvorak, or that Colemak is necessarily better, but to say that there are many alternatives and some might be a better fit for your own particular preferences.