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> It's just important to free people from the need to enrich others just to survive. Before I criticize, in full disclosure: I support UBI experiments. I have

> It's just important to free people from the need to enrich others just to survive. Before I criticize, in full disclosure: I support UBI experiments. I have my concerns, but until we have data they’re just theory. That out of the way: I don’t think it’s wildly out of line to assume a social contract that you need to provide some value to society to get access to resources (food / shelter / etc.) created by others. If I’m making food from a farm, you can’t just get food from me by existing, you need to offer something of value: working on my farm (services,) or exchanging goods I want to use, like better equipment. Or you give me money so that I can access those other two things. And at the end of the day, we still need janitors, waste management, customer support callers, etc etc - jobs people hate, but must be done. And they will continue to be done regardless of UBI.

pseudalopex 6y ago
Bullshit jobs and unpleasant jobs aren't the same.
solosoyokaze 6y ago
I don't agree that a social contract that requires that you provide value before you receive the bare necessities, is a good one. I think humanity as a whole benefits when everyone is alleviated of the need to worry about basic survival. We've reached the stage in our technological evolution where this is starting to be possible. Also, I'm not advocating for the complete erasure of private jobs and enterprise. Just that base level needs be met for all. You're free to take a customer support job if you want more money or it's your passion.
- rowanG077 6y ago
  > I think humanity as a whole benefits when everyone is alleviated of the need to worry about basic survival. Why do you think this? I really have no clue how it will turn out. However thinking logically about it I think a great many good things are done every day BECAUSE of the need for survival in one sense or another.
  - Jochim 6y ago
    Not many good things are done in the name of survival. In fact being on the edge of survival is much more likely to drive you to crime through desperation. Take care of these needs on the other hand and people start spending time on things they care about. Open source is a great example of this, if software engineers were struggling to put a roof over their heads and food on the table do you think we'd have the level of open source ecosystem we have today? The very fact we're both paid enough and have enough free time to contribute to that work has had produced great benefits for society. The goal of UBI is simply to extend that same freedom to everyone. Not everyone will contribute back, but we'd free up a lot of people to create art, businesses, software etc. that would otherwise have been behind a fast food counter or stuck in an office.
    - rowanG077 6y ago
      I don't think most people would ever get as far as being able to create anything worthwhile without a job forcing them to work. It's easy to see in young people who haven't found the right job. They waste their lives plating video games or netflixing all day. Without to pressure to do anything no open source developer will be born out of this. No artist will emerge. They will Just stay in their comfy situation. I've seen it dozen of times in my social circle and even with myself. A job provides perspective and can show you that you are truly worth something before you even believe it yourself. I'm quite certain that I and many of my peers would still play CS and whatever the current MMO is all day if I was never forced to get a job.
      - solosoyokaze 6y ago
        Human history would disagree with you. We've had art as long as people have been able to create it. There's nothing wrong with playing MMOs all day if that's what you want to do. In fact, you'd be providing social currency for the developer who created it, motivating them to create more art. Also, don't forget that most people will still want to attract a mate, which is more of a positive motivation that trying not to starve to death.
- xyzelement 6y ago
  // I don't agree that a social contract that requires that you provide value before you receive the bare necessities, is a good one. Ok let's think this through. I deserve potatoes but I hate my job picking potatoes so I quit. And so does everyone around me. Where do we get the free potatoes we are entitled to?
  - solosoyokaze 6y ago
    You get them from the same farm, picked by your replacement or the robot automation that's inevitable.
    - xyzelement 6y ago
      Short of the robot replacement, you are saying someone else has to do the dirty work I don't want to do but I should still get their produce. The question is what happens when they don't want to work either - from where do we get potatoes?
      - solosoyokaze 6y ago
        Yes, everyone should get produce. We have the resources to make that happen. Automation is inevitable, hence why UBI is necessary. UBI also doesn't mean that people can't get paid for work. It just means they don't die if they don't have a job.
        xyzelement 6y ago
        I can't tell if you are intentionally or unintentionally obtuse. Today before we have potato robots. If I don't want to pick potatoes and neither does anyone else, from where do we get potatoes? I suspect you can't answer this because the answer is we both starve to death.
        solosoyokaze 6y ago
        I don't agree with your premise that no one wants to pick potatoes. Just because you can survive without a job, it doesn't mean people won't want more money and use the skills they have available to earn it (even if that's just physical labor). Again that's temporary though as automation will happen, which you seem to not believe? It doesn't seem like rocket science to pick a potato. Self-driving cars seem like a much more difficult challenge.

pseudalopex 6y ago

Bullshit jobs and unpleasant jobs aren't the same.

solosoyokaze 6y ago

I don't agree that a social contract that requires that you provide value before you receive the bare necessities, is a good one. I think humanity as a whole benefits when everyone is alleviated of the need to worry about basic survival. We've reached the stage in our technological evolution where this is starting to be possible. Also, I'm not advocating for the complete erasure of private jobs and enterprise. Just that base level needs be met for all. You're free to take a customer support job if you want more money or it's your passion.

rowanG077 6y ago
> I think humanity as a whole benefits when everyone is alleviated of the need to worry about basic survival. Why do you think this? I really have no clue how it will turn out. However thinking logically about it I think a great many good things are done every day BECAUSE of the need for survival in one sense or another.
- Jochim 6y ago
  Not many good things are done in the name of survival. In fact being on the edge of survival is much more likely to drive you to crime through desperation. Take care of these needs on the other hand and people start spending time on things they care about. Open source is a great example of this, if software engineers were struggling to put a roof over their heads and food on the table do you think we'd have the level of open source ecosystem we have today? The very fact we're both paid enough and have enough free time to contribute to that work has had produced great benefits for society. The goal of UBI is simply to extend that same freedom to everyone. Not everyone will contribute back, but we'd free up a lot of people to create art, businesses, software etc. that would otherwise have been behind a fast food counter or stuck in an office.
  - rowanG077 6y ago
    I don't think most people would ever get as far as being able to create anything worthwhile without a job forcing them to work. It's easy to see in young people who haven't found the right job. They waste their lives plating video games or netflixing all day. Without to pressure to do anything no open source developer will be born out of this. No artist will emerge. They will Just stay in their comfy situation. I've seen it dozen of times in my social circle and even with myself. A job provides perspective and can show you that you are truly worth something before you even believe it yourself. I'm quite certain that I and many of my peers would still play CS and whatever the current MMO is all day if I was never forced to get a job.
    - solosoyokaze 6y ago
      Human history would disagree with you. We've had art as long as people have been able to create it. There's nothing wrong with playing MMOs all day if that's what you want to do. In fact, you'd be providing social currency for the developer who created it, motivating them to create more art. Also, don't forget that most people will still want to attract a mate, which is more of a positive motivation that trying not to starve to death.
xyzelement 6y ago
// I don't agree that a social contract that requires that you provide value before you receive the bare necessities, is a good one. Ok let's think this through. I deserve potatoes but I hate my job picking potatoes so I quit. And so does everyone around me. Where do we get the free potatoes we are entitled to?
- solosoyokaze 6y ago
  You get them from the same farm, picked by your replacement or the robot automation that's inevitable.
  - xyzelement 6y ago
    Short of the robot replacement, you are saying someone else has to do the dirty work I don't want to do but I should still get their produce. The question is what happens when they don't want to work either - from where do we get potatoes?
    - solosoyokaze 6y ago
      Yes, everyone should get produce. We have the resources to make that happen. Automation is inevitable, hence why UBI is necessary. UBI also doesn't mean that people can't get paid for work. It just means they don't die if they don't have a job.
      - xyzelement 6y ago
        I can't tell if you are intentionally or unintentionally obtuse. Today before we have potato robots. If I don't want to pick potatoes and neither does anyone else, from where do we get potatoes? I suspect you can't answer this because the answer is we both starve to death.
        solosoyokaze 6y ago
        I don't agree with your premise that no one wants to pick potatoes. Just because you can survive without a job, it doesn't mean people won't want more money and use the skills they have available to earn it (even if that's just physical labor). Again that's temporary though as automation will happen, which you seem to not believe? It doesn't seem like rocket science to pick a potato. Self-driving cars seem like a much more difficult challenge.