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>... Think about how much time is wasted in middle management, working on ad tech, marketing... While I agree about the prevalence of “bullshit jobs” in genera

>... Think about how much time is wasted in middle management, working on ad tech, marketing... While I agree about the prevalence of “bullshit jobs” in general, who are you to decide what jobs are “productive?” I wouldn’t trust any central authority to determine that, but rather the decentralized mechanisms that already exist in private enterprise / markets to determine that.

solosoyokaze 6y ago
No central authority has to decide which job is bullshit. I don't think people like doing these bullshit jobs, they do them to survive. Give people UBI and they'll simply quit their telemarketing, soulless middle management, ad tech job... Some of those people will play video games all day, some will create new tech, some will create art... and as you say, no one is in a position to judge which of those are "productive". It's just important to free people from the need to enrich others just to survive.
- kwhitefoot 6y ago
  And some of them will be re-hired in the same fields but to do those jobs that are not bullshit because of course some middle management jobs, advertising, etc., are useful. It might also allow people to take jobs that are currently not done because they have low status or are simply regarded as uninteresting by employers. I can easily imagine someone being willing to be a street cleaner if they had enough leverage to ensure that it was not a grindingly horrible job.
- s3r3nity 6y ago
  > It's just important to free people from the need to enrich others just to survive. Before I criticize, in full disclosure: I support UBI experiments. I have my concerns, but until we have data they’re just theory. That out of the way: I don’t think it’s wildly out of line to assume a social contract that you need to provide some value to society to get access to resources (food / shelter / etc.) created by others. If I’m making food from a farm, you can’t just get food from me by existing, you need to offer something of value: working on my farm (services,) or exchanging goods I want to use, like better equipment. Or you give me money so that I can access those other two things. And at the end of the day, we still need janitors, waste management, customer support callers, etc etc - jobs people hate, but must be done. And they will continue to be done regardless of UBI.
  - pseudalopex 6y ago
    Bullshit jobs and unpleasant jobs aren't the same.
  - solosoyokaze 6y ago
    I don't agree that a social contract that requires that you provide value before you receive the bare necessities, is a good one. I think humanity as a whole benefits when everyone is alleviated of the need to worry about basic survival. We've reached the stage in our technological evolution where this is starting to be possible. Also, I'm not advocating for the complete erasure of private jobs and enterprise. Just that base level needs be met for all. You're free to take a customer support job if you want more money or it's your passion.
    - rowanG077 6y ago
      > I think humanity as a whole benefits when everyone is alleviated of the need to worry about basic survival. Why do you think this? I really have no clue how it will turn out. However thinking logically about it I think a great many good things are done every day BECAUSE of the need for survival in one sense or another.
      - Jochim 6y ago
        Not many good things are done in the name of survival. In fact being on the edge of survival is much more likely to drive you to crime through desperation. Take care of these needs on the other hand and people start spending time on things they care about. Open source is a great example of this, if software engineers were struggling to put a roof over their heads and food on the table do you think we'd have the level of open source ecosystem we have today? The very fact we're both paid enough and have enough free time to contribute to that work has had produced great benefits for society. The goal of UBI is simply to extend that same freedom to everyone. Not everyone will contribute back, but we'd free up a lot of people to create art, businesses, software etc. that would otherwise have been behind a fast food counter or stuck in an office.
- pseudalopex 6y ago
  Many bullshit jobs pay more and have better working conditions than many non bullshit jobs. Don't assume UBI would mean fewer people working in ad tech.
- clavalle 6y ago
  >I don't think people like doing these bullshit jobs, they do them to survive. Give people UBI and they'll simply quit their telemarketing, soulless middle management, ad tech job I think you're forgetting half the equation...with the possible exception of telemarketing, those jobs go quite a bit beyond mere survival in terms of pay. People will still take those kinds of jobs because the value they get from pay. And that's fine. People value their free time and that's fine too. But I think it's not realistic to think that people in general value their free time so much that if they have enough for survival that they wouldn't take jobs that exchange hard currency for that time. What some combination of UBI/Basic Needs welfare will do, though, is prevent survival from weighing down that choice so people will demand more hard currency than they actually value that time without the infinite value sink of avoiding pain or death. I know plenty of well off people that don't have to worry too much about affording to survive who spend a lot of time working hard and it's perfectly rational considering that they consider themselves better off with the trade.
  - solosoyokaze 6y ago
    I agree with you, sorry I didn't state that clearly. I think private enterprise will continue to exist and people will willingly take jobs to make more money, accomplish something with others... the thing is with UBI, they won't have to, like you say.
- moral-argument 6y ago
  >Some of those people will play video games all day, some will create new tech, some will create art... and as you say, no one is in a position to judge which of those are "productive". It's just important to free people from the need to enrich others just to survive. I'm really not interested in funding this personally. And if I received UBI I would definitely play video games all day.
pseudalopex 6y ago
Everyone is entitled to their opinion. They didn't say anything about banning specific jobs.
hunter-gatherer 6y ago
> While I agree about the prevalence of “bullshit jobs” in general, who are you to decide what jobs are “productive?” I don't think OP stated which jobs are important or unimportant. There is some interesting research regarding this issue. I'm paid 6 figures, and the case for my job wouldn't stand up to a lot of scrutiny. There is an entire team of me.

solosoyokaze 6y ago

No central authority has to decide which job is bullshit. I don't think people like doing these bullshit jobs, they do them to survive. Give people UBI and they'll simply quit their telemarketing, soulless middle management, ad tech job... Some of those people will play video games all day, some will create new tech, some will create art... and as you say, no one is in a position to judge which of those are "productive". It's just important to free people from the need to enrich others just to survive.

kwhitefoot 6y ago
And some of them will be re-hired in the same fields but to do those jobs that are not bullshit because of course some middle management jobs, advertising, etc., are useful. It might also allow people to take jobs that are currently not done because they have low status or are simply regarded as uninteresting by employers. I can easily imagine someone being willing to be a street cleaner if they had enough leverage to ensure that it was not a grindingly horrible job.
s3r3nity 6y ago
> It's just important to free people from the need to enrich others just to survive. Before I criticize, in full disclosure: I support UBI experiments. I have my concerns, but until we have data they’re just theory. That out of the way: I don’t think it’s wildly out of line to assume a social contract that you need to provide some value to society to get access to resources (food / shelter / etc.) created by others. If I’m making food from a farm, you can’t just get food from me by existing, you need to offer something of value: working on my farm (services,) or exchanging goods I want to use, like better equipment. Or you give me money so that I can access those other two things. And at the end of the day, we still need janitors, waste management, customer support callers, etc etc - jobs people hate, but must be done. And they will continue to be done regardless of UBI.
- pseudalopex 6y ago
  Bullshit jobs and unpleasant jobs aren't the same.
- solosoyokaze 6y ago
  I don't agree that a social contract that requires that you provide value before you receive the bare necessities, is a good one. I think humanity as a whole benefits when everyone is alleviated of the need to worry about basic survival. We've reached the stage in our technological evolution where this is starting to be possible. Also, I'm not advocating for the complete erasure of private jobs and enterprise. Just that base level needs be met for all. You're free to take a customer support job if you want more money or it's your passion.
  - rowanG077 6y ago
    > I think humanity as a whole benefits when everyone is alleviated of the need to worry about basic survival. Why do you think this? I really have no clue how it will turn out. However thinking logically about it I think a great many good things are done every day BECAUSE of the need for survival in one sense or another.
    - Jochim 6y ago
      Not many good things are done in the name of survival. In fact being on the edge of survival is much more likely to drive you to crime through desperation. Take care of these needs on the other hand and people start spending time on things they care about. Open source is a great example of this, if software engineers were struggling to put a roof over their heads and food on the table do you think we'd have the level of open source ecosystem we have today? The very fact we're both paid enough and have enough free time to contribute to that work has had produced great benefits for society. The goal of UBI is simply to extend that same freedom to everyone. Not everyone will contribute back, but we'd free up a lot of people to create art, businesses, software etc. that would otherwise have been behind a fast food counter or stuck in an office.
pseudalopex 6y ago
Many bullshit jobs pay more and have better working conditions than many non bullshit jobs. Don't assume UBI would mean fewer people working in ad tech.
clavalle 6y ago
>I don't think people like doing these bullshit jobs, they do them to survive. Give people UBI and they'll simply quit their telemarketing, soulless middle management, ad tech job I think you're forgetting half the equation...with the possible exception of telemarketing, those jobs go quite a bit beyond mere survival in terms of pay. People will still take those kinds of jobs because the value they get from pay. And that's fine. People value their free time and that's fine too. But I think it's not realistic to think that people in general value their free time so much that if they have enough for survival that they wouldn't take jobs that exchange hard currency for that time. What some combination of UBI/Basic Needs welfare will do, though, is prevent survival from weighing down that choice so people will demand more hard currency than they actually value that time without the infinite value sink of avoiding pain or death. I know plenty of well off people that don't have to worry too much about affording to survive who spend a lot of time working hard and it's perfectly rational considering that they consider themselves better off with the trade.
- solosoyokaze 6y ago
  I agree with you, sorry I didn't state that clearly. I think private enterprise will continue to exist and people will willingly take jobs to make more money, accomplish something with others... the thing is with UBI, they won't have to, like you say.
moral-argument 6y ago
>Some of those people will play video games all day, some will create new tech, some will create art... and as you say, no one is in a position to judge which of those are "productive". It's just important to free people from the need to enrich others just to survive. I'm really not interested in funding this personally. And if I received UBI I would definitely play video games all day.

pseudalopex 6y ago

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. They didn't say anything about banning specific jobs.

hunter-gatherer 6y ago

> While I agree about the prevalence of “bullshit jobs” in general, who are you to decide what jobs are “productive?” I don't think OP stated which jobs are important or unimportant. There is some interesting research regarding this issue. I'm paid 6 figures, and the case for my job wouldn't stand up to a lot of scrutiny. There is an entire team of me.