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I fear mentioning this because it could turn into a flame war, but this is somewhat related. French leaders and politicians are now concerned that USA "wokeness

I fear mentioning this because it could turn into a flame war, but this is somewhat related. French leaders and politicians are now concerned that USA "wokeness" threatens the stability of their country[1]. It's a really difficult topic to address because it involves contentious racial issues, but we really need to find a way to talk about it while avoiding the bickering. I fear that if we don't find a way to put a stop to this, anti-white and anti-male discrimination will be fully accepted in the near future, which would be absolutely terrible for our society. [1] https://thepostmillennial.com/french-leaders-concerned-american-wokeness-will-divide-their-country https://thepostmillennial.com/french-leaders-concerned-ameri...

908B64B197 6y ago
What's interesting is that what's happening on American campuses is exported to France, yet, what's happening on French campuses stays on French Campuses. I wonder if it reflects current brain flow (are American students coming to French university in greater numbers than French students going to the US?). Maybe the solution is to build an ecosystem where the culture and practices is exported instead of imported.
- cameldrv 6y ago
  Foucault definitely did not stay on French campuses, and he's a huge part of this new ideology.
- lm28469 6y ago
  > What's interesting is that what's happening on American campuses is exported to France, yet, what's happening on French campuses stays on French Campuses. I never thought of it that way. That being said after 50+ years of Americanisation of Western culture (through movies, music, &c.) it's not really surprising that it flows that way. I think a lot of the American "woke" culture also emerges from things that are very easy to empathise for and trigger an outrage response. For example the George Floyd case which somehow triggered dozens of protests in Europe: no one with a fully formed brain can watch the video and not be outraged. I also feel like a lot of the American ideas about progressivism are fairly "feel good" measures that are very easily adopted (everyone wants to be upset about something, everyone wants to be themselves/special, &c.) and are all somewhat based on "identity", it feeds the "us vs them" part of the brain very nicely.
- tomp 6y ago
  More people in France can read English that people in US who can read French.
throwaway894345 6y ago
> I fear that if we don't find a way to put a stop to this, anti-white and anti-male discrimination will be fully accepted in the near future, which would be absolutely terrible for our society. I'm concerned that framing it as "anti-white, anti-male" is understating the problem. We're educating a generation of people to identify strongly with their own race and that society should be racially organized. I don't see how you can do this without getting almost everyone to lobby (socially and politically) on behalf of their own race. Sure, you'll have a few woke white people who are anti-white, but you'll end up creating many more "white identitarians" (for lack of a better term)--which is basically what we're already seeing with the uptick of far right groups. Obviously this is bad for white people and bad for people of color; racism is one of those rare lose-lose scenarios and yet we have a powerful contingent advocating for it (albeit in the guise of equality and justice).
- inglor_cz 6y ago
  Interestingly, this development comes at a moment of history when interracial marriages and children are at a record high. The only way how to square this growing complexity of ethnic mixtures with a rigid racial system is something like "one drop rule" akin to the old South.
  - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
    >Interestingly, this development comes at a moment of history when interracial marriages and children are at a record high. Because most people don't give a crap about race. There's a loud vocal minority that shapes the policy nobody cares about.
    - inglor_cz 6y ago
      Yes, but the resulting legal and quasilegal maze will trap the rest of us even if we do not give a crap. The loud vocal minority is perfectly capable of building a dystopia if no one has the stones or stomach to oppose them.
  - dragonwriter 6y ago
fasdf1122 6y ago
Just laugh in their faces. IMO this will go the way of PITA - started with a noble cause but has become so radical it is essentially a joke.
bcheung 6y ago
What I'm curious is understanding how people can arrive at radically different conclusions and thought processes when operating in the same world and same society. There seems to be a parallel thought process and definition of words that the "woke" operate by that are completely different than what is commonly accepted as the definition of a word. Words like "racist" mean something completely different. Things like "it's impossible to be racist if you are black" and making people feel ashamed of themselves for the skin color they were born with (if they are white). In the original story, seems like their decision is clearly racist and also sexist but it seems like these definitions are only selectively applied. It seems like "diversity" to them means no white people not having an equal distribution of races. They are doing the very things the are arguing against but it doesn't seem to register. How is this possible?
- jariel 6y ago
  "clearly racist and also sexist but it seems like these definitions are only selectively applied." No, they are not 'selectively applied' - in their view. In 'their version' of 'racist' - they cannot be racist - only White People can, because it's a matter of power. Even if you're only 15%. Get it? This is one of the 'root causes' - the rhetorical position that The Woke have taken is highlighted in 'White Fragility': White people are all White Supremcists by definition, they are all walking, talking 'root causes' of the problem, and therefore cannot even have any real knowledge of the problem. All they can do is shut-up and try to empathize. So this is not 'racism is judgment based on race' it's 'racism as White people have power and others don't ergo, they are racist'. It's a masterful rhetorical technique: your opponents are by definition wrong. Scientologists do this. They are taught that they are 'clean and clear, essentially above human' and that regular people are 'broken people, like animals' and there's no point in arguing with a dog. Some of their rhetorical techniques are shocking. That's a great world to live in, right? It speaks to our worst prejudices. Every day on TikTok I see racist and misandrist content, mostly by White Women and it's not only 'ok' it's pass off as 'enlightened'. It's a very powerful thing to be able to take ostensibly a moral position, but then to also bigoted at the same time - I feel it's the intellectual parallel to the power that police feel when holding a gun against someone who is 'bad'. One group can run around wielding their arbitrary moral policing, the other can't speak on the issue and so you have bad public dynamics. I don't know the answer but Phase 1 I think should be to recognize that irrespective of power, that bigotry is bigotry and actions, headlines, policies etc. that are race based have to be treated with caution, very conservatively (small-c), with deliberation.
jariel 6y ago
If official authorities in any country are able to voice concerns about a controversial subject, that's a good thing. In Canada, they would lose their jobs immediately. I'm not sure who is right in all of this, but I do think that rational discussion ought to be had among the plebes and bureaucracy, and the problem with the more authoritarian woke is that they will destroy anyone who does not agree. I think one simple, ugly, but useful tactic is to refer to these policies as racist - because in a way they are. 'Racism' is the weaponized term that the crowd will use to try to destroy everything they don't like. But since their acts are almost entirely racially based, the argument is easily made the term 'racist' applies. Even though they generally would not agree. Because the shoe fits: making boards or any group hyper-representative based on race is basically racist, so use the word.
- 908B64B197 6y ago
  Didn't Trudeau dress up in Blackface several times in the past, even well into his thirties?
  - jariel 6y ago
    Yes, but he's hyper woke, so it's 'ok'. The hypocrisy on that one is spectacular. Basically any other politician in North America would be completely destroyed and cancelled forever. Ironically, I think public reaction was appropriate - he obviously was not intending malice, it was just a bit inappropriate. But make no mistake, if that were to have happened to anyone else they would have been destroyed.
    - underseacables 6y ago
      Virginia Democrat Governor Ralph Northam was absolved of his sins and forgiven almost immediately for blackface.
      - jariel 6y ago
        That's a good point, and I wonder if someone studying pop culture seriously would endeavour to actually do broad, data-driven analysis of this stuff to identify what the actual impetuses of it all are. I think that public opinion is basically irrelevant, as most people are not really offended by all of this stuff. But special interest groups, individuals with power, and institutions acting out of caution, and occasionally opportunity (i.e. how can we make money or leverage this scandal?) would be sup-groups to identify and characterize.
foofoo4u 6y ago
Another article on the same topic: [Will American Ideas Tear France Apart? Some of Its Leaders Think So](https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/09/world/europe/france-threat-american-universities.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/09/world/europe/france-threa...)
1996 6y ago
> French leaders and politicians are now concerned that USA "wokeness" threatens the stability of their country Hypocrites. Look at how Asians are targeted in hate crime in France, by both whites and non whites. Covid being called the "China virus" threw oil on this fire. Here, the issue the school board is that it has only 1 Asian America (10%) for a 33% SFUSD student body. The way I see it, Asians always get the short end of the stick, for some reason unknown. In the US, there are anti Asian admission policies in most universities, and somehow we can't make that stop. Maybe because they are called "equal opportunity" and made to favor other races who can use it to get admitted with a fraction of the SAT (and predictably fail, while other races with higher scores are not even given the chance to compete). Now we hear France hypocrisy and think it will make this right. People, look at what happens there and tell me to my face you think they got it right and we should emulate them: https://www.scmp.com/news/world/europe/article/3043079/racist-anti-asian-assaults-france-spark-fear-condemnation https://www.scmp.com/news/world/europe/article/3043079/racis... https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37720780 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37720780 I say no. French thinkers would be best to focus on their own problems, and leave us alone. We have a problem with Asian representation, but so far I have not seen anything I can support.
te_chris 6y ago
Being anti-colonial, realistic about past injustices and how they have lead to current situations, and concerned about the means and methods to redress said situation, is not anti-white or anti-male. It’s anti bigot. Anti-dickhead.
- inglor_cz 6y ago
  "Being anti-colonial" So, would Hong Kong be better of under British rule or Chinese rule? Even contemporary EU has some quasicolonial attributes: industrial powerhouses like Germany siphon off qualified workforce from the periphery and export their products back without trade barriers.
  - damnyou 6y ago
    Chinese imperialism isn't better or worse than European imperialism. Hong Kong would be best off as an independent, liberal democracy, under no one's "rule".
    - inglor_cz 6y ago
      Theoretically yes, in practice, small states bordering major powers have trouble keeping their sovereignty. At the very least they need to enter some mutual defence alliances.
  - te_chris 6y ago
    I’m not sure what the point you’re making is?
hn_user82179 6y ago
I find it pretty hard to believe your source, considering it's a self-identifying conservative site blaming "big tech censorship".
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- m0rti 6y ago
  The source includes many other sources. So I don’t know how them being a conservative site has to do with anything in this context. They are not pulling the news out of their butts. You should decide to believe or not o believe by reading the material and checking the sources yourself. Not by their self-identification. Please read the article next time.
  - hn_user82179 6y ago
    In these times, where "news" can absolutely be "pulled out of their butts", I do think it's important to consider the partiality of any author. Even things that can be fact-checked may not tell the entire story - e.g. reporting the results of a study while neglecting to mention other studies that found differing results. In this case, the NYT article cited by the PostMillenial article was much more well-balanced with opinions included of multiple French political parties, and if someone wants to read more on this, they should read that article. They should not read the PostMillenial article, which only mentioned what the French far-right (Le Front National) party & similar political leanings mentioned and they neglected to mention they were only including those points of view. For an even more concrete example: From the PM: > Nathalie Heinich, a French sociologist told The Times, "It was a series of incidents that was extremely traumatic to our community and that all fell under what is called cancel culture," said. From the NYT: > “I was pleasantly astonished,’’ said Nathalie Heinich, a sociologist who last month helped create an organization against “decolonialism and identity politics.’’ Made up of established figures, many retired, the group has issued warnings about American-inspired social theories in major publications like Le Point and Le Figaro. > For Ms. Heinich, last year’s developments came on top of activism that brought foreign disputes over cultural appropriation and blackface to French universities. At the Sorbonne, activists prevented the staging of a play by Aeschylus to protest the wearing of masks and dark makeup by white actors; elsewhere, some well-known speakers were disinvited following student pressure. > “It was a series of incidents that was extremely traumatic to our community and that all fell under what is called cancel culture,’’ Ms. Heinich said. Do you see what I mean?
damnyou 6y ago
If a set of ideas can destabilize a racist, colonial power which as of 2021 still hasn't paid reparations to Haiti, that seems like a problem with the colonial power, not the ideas. The French republic deserves to be destabilized a bit.
- perl4ever 6y ago
  >a racist, colonial power which as of 2021 still hasn't paid reparations to Haiti Two semi-serious responses come to mind: "Wait, which one?" or "Haiti paid huge reparations to France, isn't that good enough?" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_occupation_of_Haiti https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_occupation_of_Ha... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Uphold_Democracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Uphold_Democracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Haitian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Haitian_coup_d%27%C3%A9ta... "CARICOM, an organization of Caribbean countries that included Haiti, called for a United Nations investigation into Aristide's removal, but were reportedly pressured by the U.S. and France to drop their request"
  - damnyou 6y ago
    What Americans (including Hillary Clinton) have done in Haiti is despicable. The American empire deserves to be destabilized a bit too.

908B64B197 6y ago

What's interesting is that what's happening on American campuses is exported to France, yet, what's happening on French campuses stays on French Campuses. I wonder if it reflects current brain flow (are American students coming to French university in greater numbers than French students going to the US?). Maybe the solution is to build an ecosystem where the culture and practices is exported instead of imported.

cameldrv 6y ago
Foucault definitely did not stay on French campuses, and he's a huge part of this new ideology.
lm28469 6y ago
> What's interesting is that what's happening on American campuses is exported to France, yet, what's happening on French campuses stays on French Campuses. I never thought of it that way. That being said after 50+ years of Americanisation of Western culture (through movies, music, &c.) it's not really surprising that it flows that way. I think a lot of the American "woke" culture also emerges from things that are very easy to empathise for and trigger an outrage response. For example the George Floyd case which somehow triggered dozens of protests in Europe: no one with a fully formed brain can watch the video and not be outraged. I also feel like a lot of the American ideas about progressivism are fairly "feel good" measures that are very easily adopted (everyone wants to be upset about something, everyone wants to be themselves/special, &c.) and are all somewhat based on "identity", it feeds the "us vs them" part of the brain very nicely.
tomp 6y ago
More people in France can read English that people in US who can read French.

throwaway894345 6y ago

> I fear that if we don't find a way to put a stop to this, anti-white and anti-male discrimination will be fully accepted in the near future, which would be absolutely terrible for our society. I'm concerned that framing it as "anti-white, anti-male" is understating the problem. We're educating a generation of people to identify strongly with their own race and that society should be racially organized. I don't see how you can do this without getting almost everyone to lobby (socially and politically) on behalf of their own race. Sure, you'll have a few woke white people who are anti-white, but you'll end up creating many more "white identitarians" (for lack of a better term)--which is basically what we're already seeing with the uptick of far right groups. Obviously this is bad for white people and bad for people of color; racism is one of those rare lose-lose scenarios and yet we have a powerful contingent advocating for it (albeit in the guise of equality and justice).

inglor_cz 6y ago
Interestingly, this development comes at a moment of history when interracial marriages and children are at a record high. The only way how to square this growing complexity of ethnic mixtures with a rigid racial system is something like "one drop rule" akin to the old South.
- throwaway0a5e 6y ago
  >Interestingly, this development comes at a moment of history when interracial marriages and children are at a record high. Because most people don't give a crap about race. There's a loud vocal minority that shapes the policy nobody cares about.
  - inglor_cz 6y ago
    Yes, but the resulting legal and quasilegal maze will trap the rest of us even if we do not give a crap. The loud vocal minority is perfectly capable of building a dystopia if no one has the stones or stomach to oppose them.
- dragonwriter 6y ago

fasdf1122 6y ago

Just laugh in their faces. IMO this will go the way of PITA - started with a noble cause but has become so radical it is essentially a joke.

bcheung 6y ago

What I'm curious is understanding how people can arrive at radically different conclusions and thought processes when operating in the same world and same society. There seems to be a parallel thought process and definition of words that the "woke" operate by that are completely different than what is commonly accepted as the definition of a word. Words like "racist" mean something completely different. Things like "it's impossible to be racist if you are black" and making people feel ashamed of themselves for the skin color they were born with (if they are white). In the original story, seems like their decision is clearly racist and also sexist but it seems like these definitions are only selectively applied. It seems like "diversity" to them means no white people not having an equal distribution of races. They are doing the very things the are arguing against but it doesn't seem to register. How is this possible?

jariel 6y ago
"clearly racist and also sexist but it seems like these definitions are only selectively applied." No, they are not 'selectively applied' - in their view. In 'their version' of 'racist' - they cannot be racist - only White People can, because it's a matter of power. Even if you're only 15%. Get it? This is one of the 'root causes' - the rhetorical position that The Woke have taken is highlighted in 'White Fragility': White people are all White Supremcists by definition, they are all walking, talking 'root causes' of the problem, and therefore cannot even have any real knowledge of the problem. All they can do is shut-up and try to empathize. So this is not 'racism is judgment based on race' it's 'racism as White people have power and others don't ergo, they are racist'. It's a masterful rhetorical technique: your opponents are by definition wrong. Scientologists do this. They are taught that they are 'clean and clear, essentially above human' and that regular people are 'broken people, like animals' and there's no point in arguing with a dog. Some of their rhetorical techniques are shocking. That's a great world to live in, right? It speaks to our worst prejudices. Every day on TikTok I see racist and misandrist content, mostly by White Women and it's not only 'ok' it's pass off as 'enlightened'. It's a very powerful thing to be able to take ostensibly a moral position, but then to also bigoted at the same time - I feel it's the intellectual parallel to the power that police feel when holding a gun against someone who is 'bad'. One group can run around wielding their arbitrary moral policing, the other can't speak on the issue and so you have bad public dynamics. I don't know the answer but Phase 1 I think should be to recognize that irrespective of power, that bigotry is bigotry and actions, headlines, policies etc. that are race based have to be treated with caution, very conservatively (small-c), with deliberation.

jariel 6y ago

If official authorities in any country are able to voice concerns about a controversial subject, that's a good thing. In Canada, they would lose their jobs immediately. I'm not sure who is right in all of this, but I do think that rational discussion ought to be had among the plebes and bureaucracy, and the problem with the more authoritarian woke is that they will destroy anyone who does not agree. I think one simple, ugly, but useful tactic is to refer to these policies as racist - because in a way they are. 'Racism' is the weaponized term that the crowd will use to try to destroy everything they don't like. But since their acts are almost entirely racially based, the argument is easily made the term 'racist' applies. Even though they generally would not agree. Because the shoe fits: making boards or any group hyper-representative based on race is basically racist, so use the word.

908B64B197 6y ago
Didn't Trudeau dress up in Blackface several times in the past, even well into his thirties?
- jariel 6y ago
  Yes, but he's hyper woke, so it's 'ok'. The hypocrisy on that one is spectacular. Basically any other politician in North America would be completely destroyed and cancelled forever. Ironically, I think public reaction was appropriate - he obviously was not intending malice, it was just a bit inappropriate. But make no mistake, if that were to have happened to anyone else they would have been destroyed.
  - underseacables 6y ago
    Virginia Democrat Governor Ralph Northam was absolved of his sins and forgiven almost immediately for blackface.
    - jariel 6y ago
      That's a good point, and I wonder if someone studying pop culture seriously would endeavour to actually do broad, data-driven analysis of this stuff to identify what the actual impetuses of it all are. I think that public opinion is basically irrelevant, as most people are not really offended by all of this stuff. But special interest groups, individuals with power, and institutions acting out of caution, and occasionally opportunity (i.e. how can we make money or leverage this scandal?) would be sup-groups to identify and characterize.

foofoo4u 6y ago

Another article on the same topic: [Will American Ideas Tear France Apart? Some of Its Leaders Think So](https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/09/world/europe/france-threat-american-universities.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/09/world/europe/france-threa...)

1996 6y ago

> French leaders and politicians are now concerned that USA "wokeness" threatens the stability of their country Hypocrites. Look at how Asians are targeted in hate crime in France, by both whites and non whites. Covid being called the "China virus" threw oil on this fire. Here, the issue the school board is that it has only 1 Asian America (10%) for a 33% SFUSD student body. The way I see it, Asians always get the short end of the stick, for some reason unknown. In the US, there are anti Asian admission policies in most universities, and somehow we can't make that stop. Maybe because they are called "equal opportunity" and made to favor other races who can use it to get admitted with a fraction of the SAT (and predictably fail, while other races with higher scores are not even given the chance to compete). Now we hear France hypocrisy and think it will make this right. People, look at what happens there and tell me to my face you think they got it right and we should emulate them: https://www.scmp.com/news/world/europe/article/3043079/racist-anti-asian-assaults-france-spark-fear-condemnation https://www.scmp.com/news/world/europe/article/3043079/racis... https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37720780 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37720780 I say no. French thinkers would be best to focus on their own problems, and leave us alone. We have a problem with Asian representation, but so far I have not seen anything I can support.

te_chris 6y ago

Being anti-colonial, realistic about past injustices and how they have lead to current situations, and concerned about the means and methods to redress said situation, is not anti-white or anti-male. It’s anti bigot. Anti-dickhead.

inglor_cz 6y ago
"Being anti-colonial" So, would Hong Kong be better of under British rule or Chinese rule? Even contemporary EU has some quasicolonial attributes: industrial powerhouses like Germany siphon off qualified workforce from the periphery and export their products back without trade barriers.
- damnyou 6y ago
  Chinese imperialism isn't better or worse than European imperialism. Hong Kong would be best off as an independent, liberal democracy, under no one's "rule".
  - inglor_cz 6y ago
    Theoretically yes, in practice, small states bordering major powers have trouble keeping their sovereignty. At the very least they need to enter some mutual defence alliances.
- te_chris 6y ago
  I’m not sure what the point you’re making is?

hn_user82179 6y ago

I find it pretty hard to believe your source, considering it's a self-identifying conservative site blaming "big tech censorship".

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
m0rti 6y ago
The source includes many other sources. So I don’t know how them being a conservative site has to do with anything in this context. They are not pulling the news out of their butts. You should decide to believe or not o believe by reading the material and checking the sources yourself. Not by their self-identification. Please read the article next time.
- hn_user82179 6y ago
  In these times, where "news" can absolutely be "pulled out of their butts", I do think it's important to consider the partiality of any author. Even things that can be fact-checked may not tell the entire story - e.g. reporting the results of a study while neglecting to mention other studies that found differing results. In this case, the NYT article cited by the PostMillenial article was much more well-balanced with opinions included of multiple French political parties, and if someone wants to read more on this, they should read that article. They should not read the PostMillenial article, which only mentioned what the French far-right (Le Front National) party & similar political leanings mentioned and they neglected to mention they were only including those points of view. For an even more concrete example: From the PM: > Nathalie Heinich, a French sociologist told The Times, "It was a series of incidents that was extremely traumatic to our community and that all fell under what is called cancel culture," said. From the NYT: > “I was pleasantly astonished,’’ said Nathalie Heinich, a sociologist who last month helped create an organization against “decolonialism and identity politics.’’ Made up of established figures, many retired, the group has issued warnings about American-inspired social theories in major publications like Le Point and Le Figaro. > For Ms. Heinich, last year’s developments came on top of activism that brought foreign disputes over cultural appropriation and blackface to French universities. At the Sorbonne, activists prevented the staging of a play by Aeschylus to protest the wearing of masks and dark makeup by white actors; elsewhere, some well-known speakers were disinvited following student pressure. > “It was a series of incidents that was extremely traumatic to our community and that all fell under what is called cancel culture,’’ Ms. Heinich said. Do you see what I mean?

damnyou 6y ago

If a set of ideas can destabilize a racist, colonial power which as of 2021 still hasn't paid reparations to Haiti, that seems like a problem with the colonial power, not the ideas. The French republic deserves to be destabilized a bit.

perl4ever 6y ago
>a racist, colonial power which as of 2021 still hasn't paid reparations to Haiti Two semi-serious responses come to mind: "Wait, which one?" or "Haiti paid huge reparations to France, isn't that good enough?" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_occupation_of_Haiti https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_occupation_of_Ha... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Uphold_Democracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Uphold_Democracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Haitian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Haitian_coup_d%27%C3%A9ta... "CARICOM, an organization of Caribbean countries that included Haiti, called for a United Nations investigation into Aristide's removal, but were reportedly pressured by the U.S. and France to drop their request"
- damnyou 6y ago
  What Americans (including Hillary Clinton) have done in Haiti is despicable. The American empire deserves to be destabilized a bit too.