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You buy a dishwasher from Best Buy. They send your name and address to Maytag. You buy soap from Walmart. They send your name and address to Johnson & Johnson.

You buy a dishwasher from Best Buy. They send your name and address to Maytag. You buy soap from Walmart. They send your name and address to Johnson & Johnson. You buy a sandwich at your local deli. They send your name and address to Boar’s Head. Cool?

duxup 6y ago
I don't know if it is cool, but I wouldn't be surprised. The idea that a AWS or Aszure market place with third parties involved is different than say my example, an App store with third parties seems like a good way to think about it. I'm not justifying the policy, but I am noting the context isn't that different and how we should think about it.
- IgorPartola 6y ago
  That’s fair. I guess if Canonical is selling something directly by using Azure’s storefront that’s a different thing. Still, their response to this is pretty terrible.
stevehawk 6y ago
Cool? no. The reality? Almost certainly.
csours 6y ago
> You buy a dishwasher from Best Buy. They send your name and address to Maytag. For warranty purposes of course > You buy soap from Walmart. They send your name and address to Johnson & Johnson. In case they need to recall the soap > You buy a sandwich at your local deli. They send your name and address to Boar’s Head. Cool? So you can get some cool Boar's Head swag! Just kidding of course. We need much better data privacy protection.
- IgorPartola 6y ago
  > So you can get some cool Boar's Head swag! I can’t even imagine what that might be. But technical support for my sandwich making needs would be fun. Kind of how Butterball (I think it’s them) has a help line on Thanksgiving for cooking turkeys. They made the news a few years ago by hiring men to work the phones because they learned that men cook more frequently now but feel uncomfortable asking women for advice. I had a good chuckle at that.
  - dylan604 6y ago
    >I can’t even imagine what that might be. A mounted boar's head to mount on the wall that makes grunting sounds when it's sammich time. But being HN, it'll also have cameras for eyes (3d) and microphones in the ears so that it knows when it is time to re-order more product. Maybe it'll link with Alexa/Siri/GHome with an articulated mouth so that it makes it look like it is Alexa. If you place it where it can see the contents of your fridge and/or pantry, it will be able to automatically order food for you. The lack of imagination these days... /s
  - ethbr0 6y ago
    I have a sneaking suspicion Boar's Head et al. know sandwich making secrets that would substantially improve my lunches. I mean, you do anything for long enough, you get good at it. Especially if you're soliciting feedback from even more people who are doing it. I think somewhere out there there's a story of a Brita customer support rep tracking down a filtration engineer to get a technical answer to how long one could filter and drink urine for.
- SilasX 6y ago
  Those actually seem reasonable (other than the swag one) if and only if that info is locked away on a need-to-know-basis, it’s used for precisely that purpose, and regulators vigorously punish any sharing or release. The GDPR seems like a good step in that direction.
  - t0astbread 6y ago
    For recalls the customer could subscribe to a public recall channel and warranty can be handled on a machine-identity basis (at least until the warranty actually kicks in) so none of those really require personal data upfront.
retzkek 6y ago
> You buy a dishwasher from Best Buy. They send your name and address to Maytag... Cool? Since most appliance manufacturers require you registering your product with them for warranty service, yes, please take care of that for me (many appliance stores do). Now _should_ Maytag require that registration? If it makes for a quicker and smoother warranty service process then I'm okay with it - better than needing to dig up a receipt in three years, only to find that the thermal printing has faded.
- IgorPartola 6y ago
  There is a difference between you checking off a box that says “send my info to Maytag” and BestBut just doing it and then when you find out about it Maytag saying “you weren’t supposed to find out”.
  - ryandrake 6y ago
    The difference, as usual, is: consent and control. 1. the user did not provide affirmative informed consent (it was buried in a ToS doc that nobody reads) and 2. the user has no meaningful control of the sharing.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- lotsofpulp 6y ago
  > Since most appliance manufacturers require you registering your product with them for warranty service, yes, please take care of that for me (many appliance stores do) Manufacturers legally have to honor their warranty regardless of you giving them your information. They don’t exactly say you won’t be covered by warranty if you don’t “register”, because they legally can’t.
  - sudosysgen 6y ago
    The trick used in the US is that if you do not offer this information you get a ridiculously short legal-minimum warranty.
grasseh 6y ago
I know this is meant as a rhetoric, but it sounds like car sales. I bought a car last year. They sent my name and address to Sirius XM and now I'm getting spammed by marketing calls + marketing physical mail for Sirius XM when I don't need such service. I have a phone and all my music on it. It's already something that happens in the non-software world and it's definitely annoying there too!
- IgorPartola 6y ago
  That specific one really sucks. Every time I’ve bought a car that had a satellite radio I got spammed for like two years by Sirius XM. How are they still in business?
  - WrtCdEvrydy 6y ago
    Sometimes it's just public records... I know someone fucked up if they use the wrong last name. Makes it easy to filter out spam.
- plorg 6y ago
  In the car of Sirius it's pretty amazing the lengths they'll go. They send out a Customer Agreement with a welcome packet when they activate a trial subscription for a particular unit (usually when you buy a car, new or used, but I've received it on my car that I bought 4 years previously). That agreement, it claims, has the power of contract, and will be binding on the customer as soon as the service is activated or the customer receives they're policy. Of particular offense to me, it subjects the customer to binding arbitration (for a trial subscription the customer never requested or affirmatively agreed to). They've literally gone to the Supreme Court (and lost) arguing that a trial user could not sue for their nuisance mail because of the arbitration clause. The agreement states that it remains in effect unless the customer cancels their (trial) subscription within 7 days of activation, and only by phone. In my most recent case I received such a packet 6 days after the date they said they activated the service. I called the same day and told the agent I wanted to cancel my trial subscription, citing specifically that I did not want the service and refused the terms of the agreement. The retention script (which is the same no matter which agent you talk with) is, "well you can keep the trial going and it will just expire", and repeat it several times. You have to be persistent and use the language "cancel my subscription", or you will get nowhere.
95e702cdcbd7d09 6y ago
Up until a few years ago, something similar used to happen when you bought a TV set here in Sweden. If you bought one, your information was shared with the entity ("Radiotjänst") in charge of collecting the mandatory TV fee (funding public service radio and TV programming). The fee is now collected as tax instead, so that's no longer the case.
cycomanic 6y ago
Except we are talking about licencing here, not buying. If one likes it or not, buying of physical or non-physical goods has long been very different (I'm not supporting it, but it's the reality.)
chias 6y ago
Pretty much. What do you think "loyalty" cards are actually for?
- IgorPartola 6y ago
  I am somewhat OK setting up a loyalty card with a grocery store. I am much less OK with that info being shared. But also grocery stores tend not to check your info when you sign up so I have a whole lot of cards in the name of e.g. Deez Nuts.
biot 6y ago
The distinction here is when it’s a marketplace. You buy a product from a third-party vendor on Amazon. Amazon sends details of your purchase to the third-party vendor for fulfillment. Cool.
- IgorPartola 6y ago
  I don't know how I feel about that. Am I doing business with Amazon or the third party? If it's the third party, I want it to be crystal clear that they are the ones who will get my info. And if it's not crystal clear and I find out and their response is "oops, you weren't really supposed to notice that"... Again, think of the grocery store example: you go in, there is a Boar's Head counter where they sell sandwiches. You grab a sandwich and head to the checkout line. You pay the grocery store worker who is wearing a grocery store shirt and get a grocery store receipt that says you just bought a $5 sandwich and used your grocery store loyalty card. Do you expect that Boar's Head will get the details of your loyalty card, which sandwich you bought, what else you bought, etc. even if the back of the receipt says in fine print that the grocery store may share that information with someone? If Boar's Head had their own clerk and their own cash register you'd be doing business with them. But then it would be clear cut, right? The fact that the grocery store is processing the payments and presenting it as essentially they are reselling Boar's Head products would imply that Boar's Head is not involved in your individual transaction. If this is a service you are buying from Boar's Head but they simply use the grocery store's cash registers, accounting, inventory, etc. then I would argue it's on the grocery store and Boar's Head to make it crystal clear who you are doing business with, or else you run into situations like this. And if a situation like the one that started this whole debacle happens, their response should be "We are sorry. We never made it crystal clear why we get this information. You see, we are partners with the grocery store and when you buy our delicious sandwiches from your local Piggly Wiggly you are actually doing business with us. We know it's in the grocery store's TOS, but we think it should be clear that you are actually our customer as well when you transact business with them for our goods. This is to provide benefits X, Y, and Z. If you don't want to do business with both Piggly Wiggly and us, here are some alternatives to get our delicious sandwiches elsewhere and some recipes to make your own. In addition, this incident happened because our sales staff was not properly trained on how we should use our customer data. We are going to review our privacy policies and publish an update in six weeks or sooner with what we will be doing going forward. If you have any concerns, please contact me directly. XOXO CEO of Boar's Head."

duxup 6y ago

I don't know if it is cool, but I wouldn't be surprised. The idea that a AWS or Aszure market place with third parties involved is different than say my example, an App store with third parties seems like a good way to think about it. I'm not justifying the policy, but I am noting the context isn't that different and how we should think about it.

IgorPartola 6y ago
That’s fair. I guess if Canonical is selling something directly by using Azure’s storefront that’s a different thing. Still, their response to this is pretty terrible.

stevehawk 6y ago

Cool? no. The reality? Almost certainly.

csours 6y ago

> You buy a dishwasher from Best Buy. They send your name and address to Maytag. For warranty purposes of course > You buy soap from Walmart. They send your name and address to Johnson & Johnson. In case they need to recall the soap > You buy a sandwich at your local deli. They send your name and address to Boar’s Head. Cool? So you can get some cool Boar's Head swag! Just kidding of course. We need much better data privacy protection.

IgorPartola 6y ago
> So you can get some cool Boar's Head swag! I can’t even imagine what that might be. But technical support for my sandwich making needs would be fun. Kind of how Butterball (I think it’s them) has a help line on Thanksgiving for cooking turkeys. They made the news a few years ago by hiring men to work the phones because they learned that men cook more frequently now but feel uncomfortable asking women for advice. I had a good chuckle at that.
- dylan604 6y ago
  >I can’t even imagine what that might be. A mounted boar's head to mount on the wall that makes grunting sounds when it's sammich time. But being HN, it'll also have cameras for eyes (3d) and microphones in the ears so that it knows when it is time to re-order more product. Maybe it'll link with Alexa/Siri/GHome with an articulated mouth so that it makes it look like it is Alexa. If you place it where it can see the contents of your fridge and/or pantry, it will be able to automatically order food for you. The lack of imagination these days... /s
- ethbr0 6y ago
  I have a sneaking suspicion Boar's Head et al. know sandwich making secrets that would substantially improve my lunches. I mean, you do anything for long enough, you get good at it. Especially if you're soliciting feedback from even more people who are doing it. I think somewhere out there there's a story of a Brita customer support rep tracking down a filtration engineer to get a technical answer to how long one could filter and drink urine for.
SilasX 6y ago
Those actually seem reasonable (other than the swag one) if and only if that info is locked away on a need-to-know-basis, it’s used for precisely that purpose, and regulators vigorously punish any sharing or release. The GDPR seems like a good step in that direction.
- t0astbread 6y ago
  For recalls the customer could subscribe to a public recall channel and warranty can be handled on a machine-identity basis (at least until the warranty actually kicks in) so none of those really require personal data upfront.

retzkek 6y ago

> You buy a dishwasher from Best Buy. They send your name and address to Maytag... Cool? Since most appliance manufacturers require you registering your product with them for warranty service, yes, please take care of that for me (many appliance stores do). Now _should_ Maytag require that registration? If it makes for a quicker and smoother warranty service process then I'm okay with it - better than needing to dig up a receipt in three years, only to find that the thermal printing has faded.

IgorPartola 6y ago
There is a difference between you checking off a box that says “send my info to Maytag” and BestBut just doing it and then when you find out about it Maytag saying “you weren’t supposed to find out”.
- ryandrake 6y ago
  The difference, as usual, is: consent and control. 1. the user did not provide affirmative informed consent (it was buried in a ToS doc that nobody reads) and 2. the user has no meaningful control of the sharing.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
lotsofpulp 6y ago
> Since most appliance manufacturers require you registering your product with them for warranty service, yes, please take care of that for me (many appliance stores do) Manufacturers legally have to honor their warranty regardless of you giving them your information. They don’t exactly say you won’t be covered by warranty if you don’t “register”, because they legally can’t.
- sudosysgen 6y ago
  The trick used in the US is that if you do not offer this information you get a ridiculously short legal-minimum warranty.

grasseh 6y ago

I know this is meant as a rhetoric, but it sounds like car sales. I bought a car last year. They sent my name and address to Sirius XM and now I'm getting spammed by marketing calls + marketing physical mail for Sirius XM when I don't need such service. I have a phone and all my music on it. It's already something that happens in the non-software world and it's definitely annoying there too!

IgorPartola 6y ago
That specific one really sucks. Every time I’ve bought a car that had a satellite radio I got spammed for like two years by Sirius XM. How are they still in business?
- WrtCdEvrydy 6y ago
  Sometimes it's just public records... I know someone fucked up if they use the wrong last name. Makes it easy to filter out spam.
plorg 6y ago
In the car of Sirius it's pretty amazing the lengths they'll go. They send out a Customer Agreement with a welcome packet when they activate a trial subscription for a particular unit (usually when you buy a car, new or used, but I've received it on my car that I bought 4 years previously). That agreement, it claims, has the power of contract, and will be binding on the customer as soon as the service is activated or the customer receives they're policy. Of particular offense to me, it subjects the customer to binding arbitration (for a trial subscription the customer never requested or affirmatively agreed to). They've literally gone to the Supreme Court (and lost) arguing that a trial user could not sue for their nuisance mail because of the arbitration clause. The agreement states that it remains in effect unless the customer cancels their (trial) subscription within 7 days of activation, and only by phone. In my most recent case I received such a packet 6 days after the date they said they activated the service. I called the same day and told the agent I wanted to cancel my trial subscription, citing specifically that I did not want the service and refused the terms of the agreement. The retention script (which is the same no matter which agent you talk with) is, "well you can keep the trial going and it will just expire", and repeat it several times. You have to be persistent and use the language "cancel my subscription", or you will get nowhere.

95e702cdcbd7d09 6y ago

Up until a few years ago, something similar used to happen when you bought a TV set here in Sweden. If you bought one, your information was shared with the entity ("Radiotjänst") in charge of collecting the mandatory TV fee (funding public service radio and TV programming). The fee is now collected as tax instead, so that's no longer the case.

cycomanic 6y ago

Except we are talking about licencing here, not buying. If one likes it or not, buying of physical or non-physical goods has long been very different (I'm not supporting it, but it's the reality.)

chias 6y ago

Pretty much. What do you think "loyalty" cards are actually for?

IgorPartola 6y ago
I am somewhat OK setting up a loyalty card with a grocery store. I am much less OK with that info being shared. But also grocery stores tend not to check your info when you sign up so I have a whole lot of cards in the name of e.g. Deez Nuts.

biot 6y ago

The distinction here is when it’s a marketplace. You buy a product from a third-party vendor on Amazon. Amazon sends details of your purchase to the third-party vendor for fulfillment. Cool.

IgorPartola 6y ago
I don't know how I feel about that. Am I doing business with Amazon or the third party? If it's the third party, I want it to be crystal clear that they are the ones who will get my info. And if it's not crystal clear and I find out and their response is "oops, you weren't really supposed to notice that"... Again, think of the grocery store example: you go in, there is a Boar's Head counter where they sell sandwiches. You grab a sandwich and head to the checkout line. You pay the grocery store worker who is wearing a grocery store shirt and get a grocery store receipt that says you just bought a $5 sandwich and used your grocery store loyalty card. Do you expect that Boar's Head will get the details of your loyalty card, which sandwich you bought, what else you bought, etc. even if the back of the receipt says in fine print that the grocery store may share that information with someone? If Boar's Head had their own clerk and their own cash register you'd be doing business with them. But then it would be clear cut, right? The fact that the grocery store is processing the payments and presenting it as essentially they are reselling Boar's Head products would imply that Boar's Head is not involved in your individual transaction. If this is a service you are buying from Boar's Head but they simply use the grocery store's cash registers, accounting, inventory, etc. then I would argue it's on the grocery store and Boar's Head to make it crystal clear who you are doing business with, or else you run into situations like this. And if a situation like the one that started this whole debacle happens, their response should be "We are sorry. We never made it crystal clear why we get this information. You see, we are partners with the grocery store and when you buy our delicious sandwiches from your local Piggly Wiggly you are actually doing business with us. We know it's in the grocery store's TOS, but we think it should be clear that you are actually our customer as well when you transact business with them for our goods. This is to provide benefits X, Y, and Z. If you don't want to do business with both Piggly Wiggly and us, here are some alternatives to get our delicious sandwiches elsewhere and some recipes to make your own. In addition, this incident happened because our sales staff was not properly trained on how we should use our customer data. We are going to review our privacy policies and publish an update in six weeks or sooner with what we will be doing going forward. If you have any concerns, please contact me directly. XOXO CEO of Boar's Head."