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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expressive_power http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expressive_power "In computer science, the expressive power of a language describes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expressive_power http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expressive_power "In computer science, the expressive power of a language describes the ideas expressible in that language." So, language expressiveness is about what can be expressed in a language, and not really about whether you type "multiply number by 2 for every number in 1 to 10" or use map, since that expresses the same thing.

ricardobeat 15y ago
"In computer science". I'm referring to expressiveness from a linguistics point of view - understanding an expression without depending on complex previously learned concepts. Also, I'm not a native English speaker so I might be using the wrong words to express myself.
- Argorak 15y ago
  I fail see how map is a difficult concept, despite being a word that needs to be learned. I do a lot of training for Ruby and usually introduce enumerable.rb first to all newbies. Usual reaction: "cool, I finally have a word for that". It gives programmers the ability to _express_ what action they are doing there, instead of leaving them free-floating in a for-loop-soup.
  - ricardobeat 15y ago
    For example, ask your parents about map, then the comprehension, which one will they be able to understand? It's about usability: the most ingenious programmer will be more efficient using a simpler, straight-forward interface as long as it accomplishes the task. You're a user of a language's interface/syntax. But we are drifting off here. I'll avoid using "expressive" the next time around :)
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    - Argorak 15y ago
      Actually, both of my parents are programmers of the old school, so they even understand the difference between foldr and foldl. I am actually in favor of having both options, so we might be on the same page actually. What I am opposed to, is the notion of adding a positive label to the less specialized version and a negative to the other.
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    - jessedhillon 15y ago
      > For example, ask your parents about map, Since when is that the standard for a programming language? Some tools are made for expert usage -- they require training and foreknowledge. Programming languages weren't made for your mom.
      - thenduks 15y ago
        The funny part is that your parents probably wont understand the comprehension either. Even if they were likely to, I prefer to leave things the way they are when the only reason to change it is "now my kid brother can do it!"
      - ricardobeat 15y ago
        Am I on reddit? y u no read previous comments?
  - BasDirks 15y ago
    map is an easy and powerful concept, but a comprehension resembles natural language better. I agree though that map is more _expressive_ (a more concise and comprehensive way of communicating).
Argorak 15y ago
It actually doesn't express the same thing. Map has no necessary notion of ordering, although most of the time, it behaves like the for-loop.

ricardobeat 15y ago

"In computer science". I'm referring to expressiveness from a linguistics point of view - understanding an expression without depending on complex previously learned concepts. Also, I'm not a native English speaker so I might be using the wrong words to express myself.

Argorak 15y ago
I fail see how map is a difficult concept, despite being a word that needs to be learned. I do a lot of training for Ruby and usually introduce enumerable.rb first to all newbies. Usual reaction: "cool, I finally have a word for that". It gives programmers the ability to _express_ what action they are doing there, instead of leaving them free-floating in a for-loop-soup.
- ricardobeat 15y ago
  For example, ask your parents about map, then the comprehension, which one will they be able to understand? It's about usability: the most ingenious programmer will be more efficient using a simpler, straight-forward interface as long as it accomplishes the task. You're a user of a language's interface/syntax. But we are drifting off here. I'll avoid using "expressive" the next time around :)
  - deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]
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  - Argorak 15y ago
    Actually, both of my parents are programmers of the old school, so they even understand the difference between foldr and foldl. I am actually in favor of having both options, so we might be on the same page actually. What I am opposed to, is the notion of adding a positive label to the less specialized version and a negative to the other.
  - deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]
  - jessedhillon 15y ago
    > For example, ask your parents about map, Since when is that the standard for a programming language? Some tools are made for expert usage -- they require training and foreknowledge. Programming languages weren't made for your mom.
    - thenduks 15y ago
      The funny part is that your parents probably wont understand the comprehension either. Even if they were likely to, I prefer to leave things the way they are when the only reason to change it is "now my kid brother can do it!"
    - ricardobeat 15y ago
      Am I on reddit? y u no read previous comments?
- BasDirks 15y ago
  map is an easy and powerful concept, but a comprehension resembles natural language better. I agree though that map is more _expressive_ (a more concise and comprehensive way of communicating).

Argorak 15y ago

It actually doesn't express the same thing. Map has no necessary notion of ordering, although most of the time, it behaves like the for-loop.