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IMO expressiveness has to do with being close to natural language: "multiply number by 2 for every number in 1 to 10". "map" is CS vocabulary. The conditional

IMO expressiveness has to do with being close to natural language: "multiply number by 2 for every number in 1 to 10". "map" is CS vocabulary. The conditional could be placed outside the string and still be a one-liner. It's there mostly for "flow".

adamtulinius 15y ago
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expressive_power http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expressive_power "In computer science, the expressive power of a language describes the ideas expressible in that language." So, language expressiveness is about what can be expressed in a language, and not really about whether you type "multiply number by 2 for every number in 1 to 10" or use map, since that expresses the same thing.
- ricardobeat 15y ago
  "In computer science". I'm referring to expressiveness from a linguistics point of view - understanding an expression without depending on complex previously learned concepts. Also, I'm not a native English speaker so I might be using the wrong words to express myself.
  - Argorak 15y ago
    I fail see how map is a difficult concept, despite being a word that needs to be learned. I do a lot of training for Ruby and usually introduce enumerable.rb first to all newbies. Usual reaction: "cool, I finally have a word for that". It gives programmers the ability to _express_ what action they are doing there, instead of leaving them free-floating in a for-loop-soup.
    - ricardobeat 15y ago
      For example, ask your parents about map, then the comprehension, which one will they be able to understand? It's about usability: the most ingenious programmer will be more efficient using a simpler, straight-forward interface as long as it accomplishes the task. You're a user of a language's interface/syntax. But we are drifting off here. I'll avoid using "expressive" the next time around :)
      - deleted 15y ago
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      - Argorak 15y ago
        Actually, both of my parents are programmers of the old school, so they even understand the difference between foldr and foldl. I am actually in favor of having both options, so we might be on the same page actually. What I am opposed to, is the notion of adding a positive label to the less specialized version and a negative to the other.
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      - jessedhillon 15y ago
        > For example, ask your parents about map, Since when is that the standard for a programming language? Some tools are made for expert usage -- they require training and foreknowledge. Programming languages weren't made for your mom.
        thenduks 15y ago
        The funny part is that your parents probably wont understand the comprehension either. Even if they were likely to, I prefer to leave things the way they are when the only reason to change it is "now my kid brother can do it!"
        ricardobeat 15y ago
        Am I on reddit? y u no read previous comments?
    - BasDirks 15y ago
      map is an easy and powerful concept, but a comprehension resembles natural language better. I agree though that map is more _expressive_ (a more concise and comprehensive way of communicating).
- Argorak 15y ago
  It actually doesn't express the same thing. Map has no necessary notion of ordering, although most of the time, it behaves like the for-loop.
Argorak 15y ago
We are doing applied CS here, don't we? So lets express us in that language. Also, why do we accept a*2 then? This is short mathematical notation, also a specialized language. Every field evolves domain languages for a reason: it adds the benefit of naming actions instead of implicitly doing them. "Being close to natural language" is a red herring. You can try, you will never get there and you will loose any benefit of a domain language. Also, my point was that interpretations of expressiveness differ vastly, so we should stop claiming that something is more expressive then the other.
- rimantas 15y ago
  > We are doing applied CS here, don't we? Yes. And CoffeScript prefers comprehensions over the maps. From the docs: > Comprehensions should be able to handle most places > where you otherwise would use a loop, each/forEach, > map, or select/filter In this case I prefer that way also because it puts the main thing first.
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adamtulinius 15y ago

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expressive_power http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expressive_power "In computer science, the expressive power of a language describes the ideas expressible in that language." So, language expressiveness is about what can be expressed in a language, and not really about whether you type "multiply number by 2 for every number in 1 to 10" or use map, since that expresses the same thing.

ricardobeat 15y ago
"In computer science". I'm referring to expressiveness from a linguistics point of view - understanding an expression without depending on complex previously learned concepts. Also, I'm not a native English speaker so I might be using the wrong words to express myself.
- Argorak 15y ago
  I fail see how map is a difficult concept, despite being a word that needs to be learned. I do a lot of training for Ruby and usually introduce enumerable.rb first to all newbies. Usual reaction: "cool, I finally have a word for that". It gives programmers the ability to _express_ what action they are doing there, instead of leaving them free-floating in a for-loop-soup.
  - ricardobeat 15y ago
    For example, ask your parents about map, then the comprehension, which one will they be able to understand? It's about usability: the most ingenious programmer will be more efficient using a simpler, straight-forward interface as long as it accomplishes the task. You're a user of a language's interface/syntax. But we are drifting off here. I'll avoid using "expressive" the next time around :)
    - deleted 15y ago
      [deleted]
    - deleted 15y ago
      [deleted]
    - Argorak 15y ago
      Actually, both of my parents are programmers of the old school, so they even understand the difference between foldr and foldl. I am actually in favor of having both options, so we might be on the same page actually. What I am opposed to, is the notion of adding a positive label to the less specialized version and a negative to the other.
    - deleted 15y ago
      [deleted]
    - jessedhillon 15y ago
      > For example, ask your parents about map, Since when is that the standard for a programming language? Some tools are made for expert usage -- they require training and foreknowledge. Programming languages weren't made for your mom.
      - thenduks 15y ago
        The funny part is that your parents probably wont understand the comprehension either. Even if they were likely to, I prefer to leave things the way they are when the only reason to change it is "now my kid brother can do it!"
      - ricardobeat 15y ago
        Am I on reddit? y u no read previous comments?
  - BasDirks 15y ago
    map is an easy and powerful concept, but a comprehension resembles natural language better. I agree though that map is more _expressive_ (a more concise and comprehensive way of communicating).
Argorak 15y ago
It actually doesn't express the same thing. Map has no necessary notion of ordering, although most of the time, it behaves like the for-loop.

Argorak 15y ago

We are doing applied CS here, don't we? So lets express us in that language. Also, why do we accept a*2 then? This is short mathematical notation, also a specialized language. Every field evolves domain languages for a reason: it adds the benefit of naming actions instead of implicitly doing them. "Being close to natural language" is a red herring. You can try, you will never get there and you will loose any benefit of a domain language. Also, my point was that interpretations of expressiveness differ vastly, so we should stop claiming that something is more expressive then the other.

rimantas 15y ago
> We are doing applied CS here, don't we? Yes. And CoffeScript prefers comprehensions over the maps. From the docs: > Comprehensions should be able to handle most places > where you otherwise would use a loop, each/forEach, > map, or select/filter In this case I prefer that way also because it puts the main thing first.
- deleted 15y ago
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