5 ms·

That's precisely the main innovation of Bitcoin. Without the aid of a central authority, people are able to decide on a set of rules that must be respected to p

by leppr 6y ago

That's precisely the main innovation of Bitcoin. Without the aid of a central authority, people are able to decide on a set of rules that must be respected to play in the market. People can switch to different "markets" with different rules at will. The value of these markets is itself decided through a free market. Given a sufficient level of digitization, it's not hard to imagine how many kind of real world markets could be backed by Bitcoin-like systems.

adrianN 6y ago
Except for very narrow use cases I don't see how the rules you can enforce in a digital space like a blockchain network help when you don't have a stable meatspace system of law. A bitcoin transaction can be mathematically as bullet proof as you want, but that doesn't help make your meatspace assets any more bullet proof.
- CryptoPunk 6y ago
  It doesn't take much law to make cryptocurrency secure for a person to hold: just protection from home invasion and torture. It can work quite well in otherwise highly dysfunctional societies. Other forms of property ownership are much more fragile, and require a much more sophisticated legal system.
  - fakedang 6y ago
    Will that be enough? AFAIK, every country's government (or some warlord) has a monopoly on violence and the law. If they wanted to, they could easily just draft a law mandating crypto to be stored in particular forms else can't be used/traded. Or they could simply invade your home on some bullshit pretext and seize all of your crypto. Both instances have happened before (and have been posted on HN too) and I've seen both of them in both autocracies and Western democracies. Imo, there's nothing better to secure your assets better than some form of monopoly on the law, or a monopoly on violence, or even better a combination of the two. This is also why billionaire classes simply consider crypto a wealth store asset and not a secure store of assets.
    - CryptoPunk 6y ago
      In theory, there is nothing an autocratic government can't do to you. But leaders pay a political price for instituting draconian enforcement measures, while their country pays an economic price, which makes them less likely. It's one thing to send armed agents to storm the homes of executives of a large private bank to shake down the bank. It's another to do it against end-users at a scale where it becomes effective. You may be right about the most secure form of property. Many don't have access to jurisdictions that can offer people in their income class that kind of security of property. For them, I think in some situations cryptocurrency can be a very secure form of property comparatively speaking. Cryptocurrency can be thought of as a poor man's offshore bank account, literally speaking.
      - ardy42 6y ago
        > But leaders pay a political price for instituting draconian enforcement measures, while their country pays an economic price, which makes them less likely. It's one thing to send armed agents to storm the homes of executives of a large private bank to shake down the bank. It's another to do it against end-users at a scale where it becomes effective. I don't think the political price is as high as you think, and armed agents don't have to storm the homes of end-users at scale. All they have to do is storm enough homes discourage people by making it clear the risk is real, and everyone internalizes the rules. If cryptocurrency is contraband, it's the worse kind of contraband because it advertises that you use it to the authorities through easily monitored channels (since you have to connect to identifiable internet services to use it).
        CryptoPunk 6y ago
        >>All they have to do is storm enough homes discourage people by making it clear the risk is real, and everyone internalizes the rules. I suspect the scale of enforcement needed to discourage widespread usage would be very large, and incur political and economic costs that are prohibitive. That's corroborated by the fact that the USD circulates widely in countries suffering high inflation, despite it being in the best interest of the elite of these countries for people to only use the national currency. >>If cryptocurrency is contraband, it's the worse kind of contraband because it advertises that you use it to the authorities through easily monitored channels (since you have to connect to identifiable internet services to use it). Only if public access to strong encryption is prohibited, and there are economic costs associated with a country doing that.
  - simiones 6y ago
    Ok, so no one can steal my crypto. But what if they accept my payment, and then they don't give me the items I payed for? Or vice versa - if I'm selling something and I give them the item, but they don't initiate the payment? What if the company I work for isn't transferring the BTC in our contract at the end of the month, because they ran out because their own customers haven't been paying? With a regular currency, the government can print more money and at least have a chance for things going back to normal once the currency has a chance to go back up in value. But with a currency that's not controlled, you won't get payed in worthless money (inflation), you just won't get payed at all! And instead of getting back your lost value if the currency rises in power, you'll have to hope the contract will be honored at a later date, or massively overload the legal system.
    - CryptoPunk 6y ago
      Commerce generally works quite well, to the point that it works even when there is no legal compulsion to not cheat. Bad actors are ostracized while good actors build followings, leading to reputation acting as an effective mechanism to find good actors to trade with, and incentivize people to become good actors. In any case, when people are free to choose between government-recognized currency and non-governmental digital currency, they will choose the one that best suits each circumstance, leading to greater overall utility.
      - simiones 6y ago
        Yes, in a functioning economy. Here we are discussing what happens as an economy breaks down - as people stop being able to pay their debts, for various reasons.
        CryptoPunk 6y ago
        I thought you were talking about economies with poorly functioning states, like say Ethiopia or Kenya. In these places, markets work quite well, they are just limited in the range of products and services they offer. They have limited access to the most useful financial and payment systems, like PayPal, due to undeveloped banking systems, blacklisting by governments of advanced economies, and bans by their own govermments. Cryptocurrency offers a much more accessible alternative to global payment systems to the people living in these countries.
dmitriid 6y ago
> Without the aid of a central authority, people are able to decide on a set of rules that must be respected to play in the market. What you mean to say: people will reinvent laws and governance.
- __MatrixMan__ 6y ago
  That's right, but what's new about this time is that the "how bad things have to get before we rethink laws and governance"-threshold had changed, as has the "how efficient of a government we'll accept before we stop iterating"-threshold. Governments run themselves but until recently, economies didn't. Now that there are two memes (besides violence) that are each independently capable of mediating coersion on a global scale, we can play them against each other and select for the one we like best.
  - gbear605 6y ago
    Governments have always (always) been involved in economies. Rome imported hundreds of tons of grain a year and gave them out free to its citizens. Hammurabi’s code mandated fixed medical payments and regulated professions. Don’t get me started on China. And taxation has been around as long as there has been agriculture, although it’s much better nowadays since the taxman won’t come in and tax all the food you own just before winter, leaving you to starve.

by leppr 6y ago

adrianN 6y ago

Except for very narrow use cases I don't see how the rules you can enforce in a digital space like a blockchain network help when you don't have a stable meatspace system of law. A bitcoin transaction can be mathematically as bullet proof as you want, but that doesn't help make your meatspace assets any more bullet proof.

CryptoPunk 6y ago
It doesn't take much law to make cryptocurrency secure for a person to hold: just protection from home invasion and torture. It can work quite well in otherwise highly dysfunctional societies. Other forms of property ownership are much more fragile, and require a much more sophisticated legal system.
- fakedang 6y ago
  Will that be enough? AFAIK, every country's government (or some warlord) has a monopoly on violence and the law. If they wanted to, they could easily just draft a law mandating crypto to be stored in particular forms else can't be used/traded. Or they could simply invade your home on some bullshit pretext and seize all of your crypto. Both instances have happened before (and have been posted on HN too) and I've seen both of them in both autocracies and Western democracies. Imo, there's nothing better to secure your assets better than some form of monopoly on the law, or a monopoly on violence, or even better a combination of the two. This is also why billionaire classes simply consider crypto a wealth store asset and not a secure store of assets.
  - CryptoPunk 6y ago
    In theory, there is nothing an autocratic government can't do to you. But leaders pay a political price for instituting draconian enforcement measures, while their country pays an economic price, which makes them less likely. It's one thing to send armed agents to storm the homes of executives of a large private bank to shake down the bank. It's another to do it against end-users at a scale where it becomes effective. You may be right about the most secure form of property. Many don't have access to jurisdictions that can offer people in their income class that kind of security of property. For them, I think in some situations cryptocurrency can be a very secure form of property comparatively speaking. Cryptocurrency can be thought of as a poor man's offshore bank account, literally speaking.
    - ardy42 6y ago
      > But leaders pay a political price for instituting draconian enforcement measures, while their country pays an economic price, which makes them less likely. It's one thing to send armed agents to storm the homes of executives of a large private bank to shake down the bank. It's another to do it against end-users at a scale where it becomes effective. I don't think the political price is as high as you think, and armed agents don't have to storm the homes of end-users at scale. All they have to do is storm enough homes discourage people by making it clear the risk is real, and everyone internalizes the rules. If cryptocurrency is contraband, it's the worse kind of contraband because it advertises that you use it to the authorities through easily monitored channels (since you have to connect to identifiable internet services to use it).
      - CryptoPunk 6y ago
        >>All they have to do is storm enough homes discourage people by making it clear the risk is real, and everyone internalizes the rules. I suspect the scale of enforcement needed to discourage widespread usage would be very large, and incur political and economic costs that are prohibitive. That's corroborated by the fact that the USD circulates widely in countries suffering high inflation, despite it being in the best interest of the elite of these countries for people to only use the national currency. >>If cryptocurrency is contraband, it's the worse kind of contraband because it advertises that you use it to the authorities through easily monitored channels (since you have to connect to identifiable internet services to use it). Only if public access to strong encryption is prohibited, and there are economic costs associated with a country doing that.
- simiones 6y ago
  Ok, so no one can steal my crypto. But what if they accept my payment, and then they don't give me the items I payed for? Or vice versa - if I'm selling something and I give them the item, but they don't initiate the payment? What if the company I work for isn't transferring the BTC in our contract at the end of the month, because they ran out because their own customers haven't been paying? With a regular currency, the government can print more money and at least have a chance for things going back to normal once the currency has a chance to go back up in value. But with a currency that's not controlled, you won't get payed in worthless money (inflation), you just won't get payed at all! And instead of getting back your lost value if the currency rises in power, you'll have to hope the contract will be honored at a later date, or massively overload the legal system.
  - CryptoPunk 6y ago
    Commerce generally works quite well, to the point that it works even when there is no legal compulsion to not cheat. Bad actors are ostracized while good actors build followings, leading to reputation acting as an effective mechanism to find good actors to trade with, and incentivize people to become good actors. In any case, when people are free to choose between government-recognized currency and non-governmental digital currency, they will choose the one that best suits each circumstance, leading to greater overall utility.
    - simiones 6y ago
      Yes, in a functioning economy. Here we are discussing what happens as an economy breaks down - as people stop being able to pay their debts, for various reasons.
      - CryptoPunk 6y ago
        I thought you were talking about economies with poorly functioning states, like say Ethiopia or Kenya. In these places, markets work quite well, they are just limited in the range of products and services they offer. They have limited access to the most useful financial and payment systems, like PayPal, due to undeveloped banking systems, blacklisting by governments of advanced economies, and bans by their own govermments. Cryptocurrency offers a much more accessible alternative to global payment systems to the people living in these countries.

dmitriid 6y ago

> Without the aid of a central authority, people are able to decide on a set of rules that must be respected to play in the market. What you mean to say: people will reinvent laws and governance.

__MatrixMan__ 6y ago
That's right, but what's new about this time is that the "how bad things have to get before we rethink laws and governance"-threshold had changed, as has the "how efficient of a government we'll accept before we stop iterating"-threshold. Governments run themselves but until recently, economies didn't. Now that there are two memes (besides violence) that are each independently capable of mediating coersion on a global scale, we can play them against each other and select for the one we like best.
- gbear605 6y ago
  Governments have always (always) been involved in economies. Rome imported hundreds of tons of grain a year and gave them out free to its citizens. Hammurabi’s code mandated fixed medical payments and regulated professions. Don’t get me started on China. And taxation has been around as long as there has been agriculture, although it’s much better nowadays since the taxman won’t come in and tax all the food you own just before winter, leaving you to starve.