4 ms·

Streets Like Living Rooms: Orhan Pamuk’s Photographs of Istanbul

42 points by Thevet 6y ago

keiferski 6y ago
No mention of Pamuk’s Nobel Prize winning novel My Name is Red, which is all about Istanbul and the underrated art form of Islamic miniatures. I came across this book in a bizarre way, but if I told you, you probably wouldn’t believe me. Let’s just call it a “completely unexplainable coincidence.” In any case, it’s a really fascinating look at an art form virtually no one in the Western world has heard of, yet played a huge role in the various Turkish, Persian, Mughal/Indian and Arabic empires. All set in 1500s Istanbul. Highly recommended. One idea from it that has stuck with me: the Ottoman miniaturists criticized Western forms of drawing perspective, as they presented the world from the view of a human being and not from an omniscient God figure’s viewpoint. Hence the top-down viewpoint of most miniatures. I had always associated the progression toward realism as an “improvement” over pre-perspective paintings, but the omniscient viewpoint really makes a lot of sense conceptually. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Name_Is_Red https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Name_Is_Red https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_miniature https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_miniature
- yial 6y ago
  I know you say we wouldn’t believe it, but would you be willing to share how you discovered the book?
  - keiferski 6y ago
    Sure! At the time I was living in Brooklyn. For whatever reason, I was reading the Wikipedia article about Islamic aniconism, the prohibition on figurative artwork, one morning [1]. I had very little knowledge of Islam and didn’t know anything about Ottoman miniatures. Not sure why or how I came across the Wikipedia article, probably just a random click from something else. A few hours later, I was walking through Bed-Stuy (neighborhood in Brooklyn) and saw a red book just laying on a stoop. It looked like someone meant to throw it away, so I picked it up and read the description. It turns out to be My Name is Red, which is all about the Islamic prohibition on images; the main plot line is about an artist who is killed while working on a figurative artwork for the Sultan. I’ve had two or three other experiences like this in my life, each with unexplainable coincidences. I’m not sure what to make of them. Clearly they are much more than a mere Baader–Meinhof phenomenon. 1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aniconism_in_Islam https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aniconism_in_Islam
    - yial 6y ago
      Thank you for sharing! Coincidences like that are strange but absolutely do occur.
ARandomerDude 6y ago
I'm surprised to see photos of women with their heads, arms, and legs showing. Is this common in Turkey? If so, where else in the Middle East?
- gnulinux 6y ago
  It is of course very common and is the great majority (>99.999% in some places) and less common (maybe 50%) in others. Turkey has a very strange view in the US imho, I was from California and when I went to Istanbul to work in a startup (funny&long story) my friends thought I'm going to a desert in the middle of nowhere or something; when Istanbul is literally the biggest metropolitan center in Europe. The reality and American people's image of Turkey are extremely mismatched. I wrote about my views on Istanbul and Turkey here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25164997 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25164997
  - keiferski 6y ago
    Turkey spent most of the twentieth century instituting secularism at every level of society, so violently that a backlash eventually erupted against it. I’m not particularly sure how I feel about it, as the issue is complex, but I do think that it’s unfortunate that modern Turks are unable to read their own Ottoman history due to the change from Arabic to Latin script.
    - Mediterraneo10 6y ago
      Not only the change in script. Written Ottoman Turkish was a different language than Turkish, basically. It was so replete with Persian vocabulary and grammatical constructions that the average Turk wouldn't be able to make sense of it even if they could read the script. Also, Ataturk's language reform led to the forced replacement of many 19th-century Turkish words with neologisms, to the point where the old words have been utterly forgotten.
    - ACAVJW4H 6y ago
      Sorry but it's naive to think that the only reason Turks cannot read their own Ottoman history is the change of script. Let me try to explain myself briefly: 1 - Unfortunately Anatolia historically had a very low literacy rate for centuries. This still has a profound effect on Turkish reading. Although there were great works of art, Turkish population is not deeply interested in literature or factual history. 2- One can find translations of any material abundantly. If someone is/were interested in any historical artifact I am sure there would be plenty of options or even better tens of thousands of unemployed young university graduates who could help your curiosity. 3- Even if someone were able to read the arabic script fluently. Literally no one could derive any meaning from it without proper education. In fact there are University Faculties dedicated to teaching "Ottomanees" as the language beares very little resemblance to today's Turkish. Literally >two thirds of our vocabulary were loan words. 4- The arabic script was phonetically incompatible with Turkish, vowels which are second thought in arabic script are very much important in Turkish. Hence the alphabet was already a modified one. This was also part of the reason behind poor literacy rates. Turkish written in arabic script was very hard to teach and master. There are many more arguments behind the very much needed change. These are only a couple off the top of my head
AussieWog93 6y ago
The article contains 2500 words and 3 photos. Talk about a misleading title...
- barry27 6y ago
  I love to imagine you sitting there laboriously counting every word so as to be sure your outrage is entirely accurate. But since you're a Hacker News, you probably thought of a Clever Way of counting the words instead, right?
altayoz 6y ago
If you like to discover more on İstanbul see Ara Güler's photos which are also used by Pamuk in some of his books. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ara_G%C3%BCler?wprov=sfla1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ara_G%C3%BCler?wprov=sfla1

42 points by Thevet 6y ago

No mention of Pamuk’s Nobel Prize winning novel My Name is Red, which is all about Istanbul and the underrated art form of Islamic miniatures. I came across this book in a bizarre way, but if I told you, you probably wouldn’t believe me. Let’s just call it a “completely unexplainable coincidence.” In any case, it’s a really fascinating look at an art form virtually no one in the Western world has heard of, yet played a huge role in the various Turkish, Persian, Mughal/Indian and Arabic empires. All set in 1500s Istanbul. Highly recommended. One idea from it that has stuck with me: the Ottoman miniaturists criticized Western forms of drawing perspective, as they presented the world from the view of a human being and not from an omniscient God figure’s viewpoint. Hence the top-down viewpoint of most miniatures. I had always associated the progression toward realism as an “improvement” over pre-perspective paintings, but the omniscient viewpoint really makes a lot of sense conceptually. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Name_Is_Red https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Name_Is_Red https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_miniature https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_miniature

yial 6y ago
I know you say we wouldn’t believe it, but would you be willing to share how you discovered the book?
- keiferski 6y ago
  Sure! At the time I was living in Brooklyn. For whatever reason, I was reading the Wikipedia article about Islamic aniconism, the prohibition on figurative artwork, one morning [1]. I had very little knowledge of Islam and didn’t know anything about Ottoman miniatures. Not sure why or how I came across the Wikipedia article, probably just a random click from something else. A few hours later, I was walking through Bed-Stuy (neighborhood in Brooklyn) and saw a red book just laying on a stoop. It looked like someone meant to throw it away, so I picked it up and read the description. It turns out to be My Name is Red, which is all about the Islamic prohibition on images; the main plot line is about an artist who is killed while working on a figurative artwork for the Sultan. I’ve had two or three other experiences like this in my life, each with unexplainable coincidences. I’m not sure what to make of them. Clearly they are much more than a mere Baader–Meinhof phenomenon. 1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aniconism_in_Islam https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aniconism_in_Islam
  - yial 6y ago
    Thank you for sharing! Coincidences like that are strange but absolutely do occur.

ARandomerDude 6y ago

I'm surprised to see photos of women with their heads, arms, and legs showing. Is this common in Turkey? If so, where else in the Middle East?

gnulinux 6y ago
It is of course very common and is the great majority (>99.999% in some places) and less common (maybe 50%) in others. Turkey has a very strange view in the US imho, I was from California and when I went to Istanbul to work in a startup (funny&long story) my friends thought I'm going to a desert in the middle of nowhere or something; when Istanbul is literally the biggest metropolitan center in Europe. The reality and American people's image of Turkey are extremely mismatched. I wrote about my views on Istanbul and Turkey here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25164997 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25164997
- keiferski 6y ago
  Turkey spent most of the twentieth century instituting secularism at every level of society, so violently that a backlash eventually erupted against it. I’m not particularly sure how I feel about it, as the issue is complex, but I do think that it’s unfortunate that modern Turks are unable to read their own Ottoman history due to the change from Arabic to Latin script.
  - Mediterraneo10 6y ago
    Not only the change in script. Written Ottoman Turkish was a different language than Turkish, basically. It was so replete with Persian vocabulary and grammatical constructions that the average Turk wouldn't be able to make sense of it even if they could read the script. Also, Ataturk's language reform led to the forced replacement of many 19th-century Turkish words with neologisms, to the point where the old words have been utterly forgotten.
  - ACAVJW4H 6y ago
    Sorry but it's naive to think that the only reason Turks cannot read their own Ottoman history is the change of script. Let me try to explain myself briefly: 1 - Unfortunately Anatolia historically had a very low literacy rate for centuries. This still has a profound effect on Turkish reading. Although there were great works of art, Turkish population is not deeply interested in literature or factual history. 2- One can find translations of any material abundantly. If someone is/were interested in any historical artifact I am sure there would be plenty of options or even better tens of thousands of unemployed young university graduates who could help your curiosity. 3- Even if someone were able to read the arabic script fluently. Literally no one could derive any meaning from it without proper education. In fact there are University Faculties dedicated to teaching "Ottomanees" as the language beares very little resemblance to today's Turkish. Literally >two thirds of our vocabulary were loan words. 4- The arabic script was phonetically incompatible with Turkish, vowels which are second thought in arabic script are very much important in Turkish. Hence the alphabet was already a modified one. This was also part of the reason behind poor literacy rates. Turkish written in arabic script was very hard to teach and master. There are many more arguments behind the very much needed change. These are only a couple off the top of my head

AussieWog93 6y ago

The article contains 2500 words and 3 photos. Talk about a misleading title...

barry27 6y ago
I love to imagine you sitting there laboriously counting every word so as to be sure your outrage is entirely accurate. But since you're a Hacker News, you probably thought of a Clever Way of counting the words instead, right?

altayoz 6y ago

If you like to discover more on İstanbul see Ara Güler's photos which are also used by Pamuk in some of his books. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ara_G%C3%BCler?wprov=sfla1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ara_G%C3%BCler?wprov=sfla1