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You seem a bit confused about the ages. The dark ages is not a synonym for the medieval era. It's a sub-division of the medieval era - one of three. The dark

You seem a bit confused about the ages. The dark ages is not a synonym for the medieval era. It's a sub-division of the medieval era - one of three. The dark ages is a period after the fall of Rome. It's named for the fact that very little written output was produced during this time. It ran about 500-1000AD. The high middle ages came after, and there was a lot more writing going on during this period. This was about 1000-1250AD. When people think 'medieval', this is usually what they think, if not the late medieval period (the third sub-division). Then came the Renaissance, then the modern period. The dark ages actually were pretty dark, mysterious, and primitive, as evidenced by the very low intellectual and cultural output during these years, low populations, low levels of social organization, and so on. Generally, the good parts and achievements of the medieval period that you're gesturing at were during the high and late parts.

nexthash 6y ago
None of this is true... politics mainly happened at the local level because the imperial Roman empire was destroyed, but that only changed development and innovation. Have you ever read Beowulf? It is one of the most highly developed pieces of Old English poetry, at 3000 lines, and was written in this time period. Silver mining increased, and many technological innovations like iron plows emerged. Beautiful cathedrals were constructed in the Romanesque style, and learning continued in monastical schools all over Europe. There was international trade and military activity ranging from Scandinavian societies raiding into Europe and the Mediterranean, as well as the Crusades starting up near the end of this period. The Christian church of the Roman empire, otherwise known as the Roman Catholic Church, was alive and well, becoming one of the most powerful institutions for the next several hundred centuries. "Dark Ages" is an antiquated term - think transition, not Camelot (although the legend did originate in this period). It is often called the "Early Middle Ages" these days.
- landryraccoon 6y ago
  > the next several hundred centuries. No kidding! As documented in the Hyperion Series, by Dan Simmons, I suppose.
- jlawson 6y ago
  I didn't say that literally nothing was written during that period. So pointing to one poem doesn't really affect the argument. Same for achievements like silver mining or iron plows. Obviously many individual things happened. It's a statistical trend where this period is lower than both those before and after. Here's a chart if you like. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:European_Output_of_Manuscripts_500%E2%80%931500.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:European_Output_of_Manusc...
jcranmer 6y ago
> The dark ages is not a synonym for the medieval era. Actually, it originally was. The "Dark Ages" was coined during the late Middle Ages/early Renaissance to refer to the entire period following the fall of the Roman Empire and the rise of "modern" knowledge. It's only recently (20th century) that the term is shrunk back to refer to the Early Medieval period. > It's named for the fact that very little written output was produced during this time. It ran about 500-1000AD. There's your problem. The drought of manuscripts runs from about 500-800; the Carolingian Renaissance (and Albert the Great's concomitant reforms) brings back the manuscript production.
- Karrot_Kream 6y ago
  Indeed, and the Carolignian Empire, at its height, had united almost all of Western Europe again and led directly to France and the HRE as successor states. If you look at the conquest and governmental structures in the Carolignian Emprie, you'd have a very hard time arguing that they were undeveloped, locked in a "dark age".
- cygx 6y ago
  Just because the boundaries are fuzzy doesn't necessarily invalidate the concept of a 'dark age'. If you don't like the term, we could call it "the age where total population, urbanization levels, manuscript production, trade volume, lead pollution, [placeholder for other convenient or inconvenient metric] in Europe[1] stayed far below peak Roman levels" - but that's kind of a mouthful... [1] 'western' Europe in particular, but some of the effects are visible at continental scale, or even globally

nexthash 6y ago

None of this is true... politics mainly happened at the local level because the imperial Roman empire was destroyed, but that only changed development and innovation. Have you ever read Beowulf? It is one of the most highly developed pieces of Old English poetry, at 3000 lines, and was written in this time period. Silver mining increased, and many technological innovations like iron plows emerged. Beautiful cathedrals were constructed in the Romanesque style, and learning continued in monastical schools all over Europe. There was international trade and military activity ranging from Scandinavian societies raiding into Europe and the Mediterranean, as well as the Crusades starting up near the end of this period. The Christian church of the Roman empire, otherwise known as the Roman Catholic Church, was alive and well, becoming one of the most powerful institutions for the next several hundred centuries. "Dark Ages" is an antiquated term - think transition, not Camelot (although the legend did originate in this period). It is often called the "Early Middle Ages" these days.

landryraccoon 6y ago
> the next several hundred centuries. No kidding! As documented in the Hyperion Series, by Dan Simmons, I suppose.
jlawson 6y ago
I didn't say that literally nothing was written during that period. So pointing to one poem doesn't really affect the argument. Same for achievements like silver mining or iron plows. Obviously many individual things happened. It's a statistical trend where this period is lower than both those before and after. Here's a chart if you like. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:European_Output_of_Manuscripts_500%E2%80%931500.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:European_Output_of_Manusc...

jcranmer 6y ago

> The dark ages is not a synonym for the medieval era. Actually, it originally was. The "Dark Ages" was coined during the late Middle Ages/early Renaissance to refer to the entire period following the fall of the Roman Empire and the rise of "modern" knowledge. It's only recently (20th century) that the term is shrunk back to refer to the Early Medieval period. > It's named for the fact that very little written output was produced during this time. It ran about 500-1000AD. There's your problem. The drought of manuscripts runs from about 500-800; the Carolingian Renaissance (and Albert the Great's concomitant reforms) brings back the manuscript production.

Karrot_Kream 6y ago
Indeed, and the Carolignian Empire, at its height, had united almost all of Western Europe again and led directly to France and the HRE as successor states. If you look at the conquest and governmental structures in the Carolignian Emprie, you'd have a very hard time arguing that they were undeveloped, locked in a "dark age".
cygx 6y ago
Just because the boundaries are fuzzy doesn't necessarily invalidate the concept of a 'dark age'. If you don't like the term, we could call it "the age where total population, urbanization levels, manuscript production, trade volume, lead pollution, [placeholder for other convenient or inconvenient metric] in Europe[1] stayed far below peak Roman levels" - but that's kind of a mouthful... [1] 'western' Europe in particular, but some of the effects are visible at continental scale, or even globally