4 ms·

That... doesn't make a lot of sense, at least on face value. In the Protestant view, your work (human effort) has no effect on your salvation. In the Catholic v

That... doesn't make a lot of sense, at least on face value. In the Protestant view, your work (human effort) has no effect on your salvation. In the Catholic view, it has a lot to do with it. For a modern review see Laborem Exercens: http://www.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_14091981_laborem-exercens.html http://www.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/encyclicals/do....

jariel 6y ago
I don't think it's to do with salvation so much as the cultural views towards people. Hearty, independent farmers, strong communitarian values, some degree of independence, faith and fealty are to be admired as virtuous, a form of 'working nobility'. I don't think the contrasting view of them as 'lowly' has anything to do with faith or religion but rather just a measure of perspective in culture. Ancient world vs Newer World. My grandparents were farmers, and were amazing people. I never worried about telling people that in North America. In many other parts of the world, it's the equivalent of saying "my grandparents were illiterate, stupid, servile, serfs". In many parts of the world, a few generations ago it was either 'Rich and Powerful' or 'a Stupid, Servile, Plebe' and there really wasn't much in between, and that to have Money, Wealth and Power was to be something inherently admirable in and of itself.
- michaelsbradley 6y ago
  Fair enough. I was responding specifically to the parent comment: "...contrast the American / protestant view of work as the path to salvation with the European / catholic view of work as something pitiful" I think there's still more to understand re: "cultural view towards people" (the dynamics behind those views) in relation to a point that's central to the Catholic ethos operative then and now: Christ crucified, the power of God and the wisdom of God (cf. 1 Corinthians 1:18-31).
- loopz 6y ago
  America was about getting to own land, for refugee serfs that had no opportunity to land and education.
  - jariel 6y ago
    Yes, that's fundamental to it. And so many things.
ardy42 6y ago
>> They also seem useful to contrast the American / protestant view of work as the path to salvation with the European / catholic view of work as something pitiful > That... doesn't make a lot of sense, at least on face value. In the Protestant view, your work (human effort) has no effect on your salvation. In the Catholic view, it has a lot to do with it. I think he got it wrong. IIRC, the "Protestant work ethic" comes from a belief one's work ethic and success is proof of salivation, not the cause of it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_work_ethic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_work_ethic: > Since it was impossible to know who was predestined, the notion developed that it might be possible to discern that a person was elect (predestined) by observing their way of life. Hard work and frugality were thought to be two important consequences of being one of the elect. Protestants were thus attracted to these qualities and supposed to strive for reaching them.

jariel 6y ago

I don't think it's to do with salvation so much as the cultural views towards people. Hearty, independent farmers, strong communitarian values, some degree of independence, faith and fealty are to be admired as virtuous, a form of 'working nobility'. I don't think the contrasting view of them as 'lowly' has anything to do with faith or religion but rather just a measure of perspective in culture. Ancient world vs Newer World. My grandparents were farmers, and were amazing people. I never worried about telling people that in North America. In many other parts of the world, it's the equivalent of saying "my grandparents were illiterate, stupid, servile, serfs". In many parts of the world, a few generations ago it was either 'Rich and Powerful' or 'a Stupid, Servile, Plebe' and there really wasn't much in between, and that to have Money, Wealth and Power was to be something inherently admirable in and of itself.

michaelsbradley 6y ago
Fair enough. I was responding specifically to the parent comment: "...contrast the American / protestant view of work as the path to salvation with the European / catholic view of work as something pitiful" I think there's still more to understand re: "cultural view towards people" (the dynamics behind those views) in relation to a point that's central to the Catholic ethos operative then and now: Christ crucified, the power of God and the wisdom of God (cf. 1 Corinthians 1:18-31).
loopz 6y ago
America was about getting to own land, for refugee serfs that had no opportunity to land and education.
- jariel 6y ago
  Yes, that's fundamental to it. And so many things.

ardy42 6y ago

>> They also seem useful to contrast the American / protestant view of work as the path to salvation with the European / catholic view of work as something pitiful > That... doesn't make a lot of sense, at least on face value. In the Protestant view, your work (human effort) has no effect on your salvation. In the Catholic view, it has a lot to do with it. I think he got it wrong. IIRC, the "Protestant work ethic" comes from a belief one's work ethic and success is proof of salivation, not the cause of it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_work_ethic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_work_ethic: > Since it was impossible to know who was predestined, the notion developed that it might be possible to discern that a person was elect (predestined) by observing their way of life. Hard work and frugality were thought to be two important consequences of being one of the elect. Protestants were thus attracted to these qualities and supposed to strive for reaching them.