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> Clues about how privileged people in the Middle Ages regarded peasants can be found in their courtly songs, sarcastic proverbs, nasty jokes, and pious sermons

> Clues about how privileged people in the Middle Ages regarded peasants can be found in their courtly songs, sarcastic proverbs, nasty jokes, and pious sermons. Knights and ladies were fond of songs known as pastourelles that told, among other things, about how easy it was for knights to have sex with peasant women or, failing that, to rape them; monks and students enjoyed jokes that portrayed peasants as ludicrously dumb and foolish; and priests, friars, and bishops preached sermons that depicted “those who work” as objects of pity, charity, and disgust. Even Piers Plowman, a sympathetic portrayal of rural life, portrayed the peasant’s lot as hard and pitiable. These literary texts are useful for understanding the often astoundingly negative attitudes of elites toward peasants, but they tell little about the peasants themselves. They also seem useful to contrast the American / protestant view of work as the path to salvation with the European / catholic view of work as something pitiful EDIT: See e.g. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protestant_Ethic_and_the_Spirit_of_Capitalism https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protestant_Ethic_and_the...

michaelsbradley 6y ago
That... doesn't make a lot of sense, at least on face value. In the Protestant view, your work (human effort) has no effect on your salvation. In the Catholic view, it has a lot to do with it. For a modern review see Laborem Exercens: http://www.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_14091981_laborem-exercens.html http://www.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/encyclicals/do....
- jariel 6y ago
  I don't think it's to do with salvation so much as the cultural views towards people. Hearty, independent farmers, strong communitarian values, some degree of independence, faith and fealty are to be admired as virtuous, a form of 'working nobility'. I don't think the contrasting view of them as 'lowly' has anything to do with faith or religion but rather just a measure of perspective in culture. Ancient world vs Newer World. My grandparents were farmers, and were amazing people. I never worried about telling people that in North America. In many other parts of the world, it's the equivalent of saying "my grandparents were illiterate, stupid, servile, serfs". In many parts of the world, a few generations ago it was either 'Rich and Powerful' or 'a Stupid, Servile, Plebe' and there really wasn't much in between, and that to have Money, Wealth and Power was to be something inherently admirable in and of itself.
  - michaelsbradley 6y ago
    Fair enough. I was responding specifically to the parent comment: "...contrast the American / protestant view of work as the path to salvation with the European / catholic view of work as something pitiful" I think there's still more to understand re: "cultural view towards people" (the dynamics behind those views) in relation to a point that's central to the Catholic ethos operative then and now: Christ crucified, the power of God and the wisdom of God (cf. 1 Corinthians 1:18-31).
  - loopz 6y ago
    America was about getting to own land, for refugee serfs that had no opportunity to land and education.
    - jariel 6y ago
      Yes, that's fundamental to it. And so many things.
- ardy42 6y ago
  >> They also seem useful to contrast the American / protestant view of work as the path to salvation with the European / catholic view of work as something pitiful > That... doesn't make a lot of sense, at least on face value. In the Protestant view, your work (human effort) has no effect on your salvation. In the Catholic view, it has a lot to do with it. I think he got it wrong. IIRC, the "Protestant work ethic" comes from a belief one's work ethic and success is proof of salivation, not the cause of it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_work_ethic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_work_ethic: > Since it was impossible to know who was predestined, the notion developed that it might be possible to discern that a person was elect (predestined) by observing their way of life. Hard work and frugality were thought to be two important consequences of being one of the elect. Protestants were thus attracted to these qualities and supposed to strive for reaching them.
pomian 6y ago
Is this a British centric view of history? It seems very one sided...
- wombatmobile 6y ago
  > We can especially study peasants in England because the archives there are especially full. In some cases, the superiority of English archives stems from the more careful record-keeping of its administrators, but, in most cases, it has been a matter of survival through the centuries. Thanks to a strong legal system, a relatively stable social order, and a hefty dose of luck, England’s medieval archives have survived especially well. In France, for example, many medieval archives were destroyed during the French Revolution, and in Scotland, untold thousands of state documents were lost when a ship carrying them sank in 1661. History is built on evidence, and if there is little evidence, historians have much less to study and much less to say.
  - hnedeotes 6y ago
    I found it deeply ironic that you're replying to this: >Is this a British centric view of history? It seems very one sided... reply With that quote. This phrase: >In some cases, the superiority of English archives stems from the more careful record-keeping of its administrators, but, in most cases, it has been a matter of survival through the centuries Look at the words and order in which they appear "superiority", "careful record-keeping of its administrators". Starting from the lesser important cause to the main one, luck. In fact what it's saying is: > We can especially study peasants in England because the archives there are especially full, stemming from the simply fact that they survived through time, whereas in many other places they didn't due to many diverse factors" It goes on on the following phrase: > Thanks to a strong legal system, a relatively stable social order, and a hefty dose of luck, England’s medieval archives have survived especially well. Again the wording and the order, luck is the last item, although in the writer's defence, they wrote "hefty dose of luck". Nonetheless, when you read that phrase the first thing that is imprinted is the "strong legal system", "relative stable social order", and lastly luck no matter how hefty. And this is proved by the following remarks about how in France and Scotland a presumably high number of documents were lost, which invalidates the supposed "careful record-keeping" being a relevant reason. There's other examples where sacks, destruction or natural phenomena destroyed complete archives of many states, in Europe and elsewhere. This is not to say that the conclusions of the article are wrong or that in fact English book keeping wasn't good or even better than any of the other mentioned here, in some, a few, many or all cases, it's just the way it's written. *edit formatting
sn41 6y ago
Isn't this the work by Max Weber? The main idea here is that predestination of Calvin believed that certain people were predestined for salvation, and others were not. But the implication is that material wealth is an indication of whether one is to be saved or not. Weber points out that even though there were always wealthy classes all over the world - he is quite eclectic and treats ancient India, Babylon, China and Japan - modern capitalism and earning money for the sake of earning money, not for enjoying resulting luxuries, is Protestant in nature. I am not an expert on Catholic viewpoint, but many religions (other than Calvinism as Weber sees it) tend to see wealth as a hindrance to salvation - e.g. camel through the eye of the needle etc. But the doctrine of karma etc. do tend to emphasize work for work's sake. So I am not sure I completely agree with Weber (he has works on Hinduism, Judaism etc. which are also insightful and unique takes on religion).
anthk 6y ago
I am from Spain, some of oldest dirty jokes/limericks date back to Middle Ages, too.
throw0101a 6y ago
The "Protestant" work ethic existed before Protestentism. See for example: > Andersen et al found that the location monasteries of the Catholic Order of Cistercians, and specifically their density, highly correlated to this work ethic in later centuries;[18] ninety percent of these monasteries were founded before the year 1300 AD. Joseph Henrich found that this correlation extends right up to the twenty-first century.[19] * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_work_ethic#Criticism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_work_ethic#Criticis... * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cistercians https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cistercians

michaelsbradley 6y ago

That... doesn't make a lot of sense, at least on face value. In the Protestant view, your work (human effort) has no effect on your salvation. In the Catholic view, it has a lot to do with it. For a modern review see Laborem Exercens: http://www.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_14091981_laborem-exercens.html http://www.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/encyclicals/do....

jariel 6y ago
I don't think it's to do with salvation so much as the cultural views towards people. Hearty, independent farmers, strong communitarian values, some degree of independence, faith and fealty are to be admired as virtuous, a form of 'working nobility'. I don't think the contrasting view of them as 'lowly' has anything to do with faith or religion but rather just a measure of perspective in culture. Ancient world vs Newer World. My grandparents were farmers, and were amazing people. I never worried about telling people that in North America. In many other parts of the world, it's the equivalent of saying "my grandparents were illiterate, stupid, servile, serfs". In many parts of the world, a few generations ago it was either 'Rich and Powerful' or 'a Stupid, Servile, Plebe' and there really wasn't much in between, and that to have Money, Wealth and Power was to be something inherently admirable in and of itself.
- michaelsbradley 6y ago
  Fair enough. I was responding specifically to the parent comment: "...contrast the American / protestant view of work as the path to salvation with the European / catholic view of work as something pitiful" I think there's still more to understand re: "cultural view towards people" (the dynamics behind those views) in relation to a point that's central to the Catholic ethos operative then and now: Christ crucified, the power of God and the wisdom of God (cf. 1 Corinthians 1:18-31).
- loopz 6y ago
  America was about getting to own land, for refugee serfs that had no opportunity to land and education.
  - jariel 6y ago
    Yes, that's fundamental to it. And so many things.
ardy42 6y ago
>> They also seem useful to contrast the American / protestant view of work as the path to salvation with the European / catholic view of work as something pitiful > That... doesn't make a lot of sense, at least on face value. In the Protestant view, your work (human effort) has no effect on your salvation. In the Catholic view, it has a lot to do with it. I think he got it wrong. IIRC, the "Protestant work ethic" comes from a belief one's work ethic and success is proof of salivation, not the cause of it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_work_ethic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_work_ethic: > Since it was impossible to know who was predestined, the notion developed that it might be possible to discern that a person was elect (predestined) by observing their way of life. Hard work and frugality were thought to be two important consequences of being one of the elect. Protestants were thus attracted to these qualities and supposed to strive for reaching them.

pomian 6y ago

Is this a British centric view of history? It seems very one sided...

wombatmobile 6y ago
> We can especially study peasants in England because the archives there are especially full. In some cases, the superiority of English archives stems from the more careful record-keeping of its administrators, but, in most cases, it has been a matter of survival through the centuries. Thanks to a strong legal system, a relatively stable social order, and a hefty dose of luck, England’s medieval archives have survived especially well. In France, for example, many medieval archives were destroyed during the French Revolution, and in Scotland, untold thousands of state documents were lost when a ship carrying them sank in 1661. History is built on evidence, and if there is little evidence, historians have much less to study and much less to say.
- hnedeotes 6y ago
  I found it deeply ironic that you're replying to this: >Is this a British centric view of history? It seems very one sided... reply With that quote. This phrase: >In some cases, the superiority of English archives stems from the more careful record-keeping of its administrators, but, in most cases, it has been a matter of survival through the centuries Look at the words and order in which they appear "superiority", "careful record-keeping of its administrators". Starting from the lesser important cause to the main one, luck. In fact what it's saying is: > We can especially study peasants in England because the archives there are especially full, stemming from the simply fact that they survived through time, whereas in many other places they didn't due to many diverse factors" It goes on on the following phrase: > Thanks to a strong legal system, a relatively stable social order, and a hefty dose of luck, England’s medieval archives have survived especially well. Again the wording and the order, luck is the last item, although in the writer's defence, they wrote "hefty dose of luck". Nonetheless, when you read that phrase the first thing that is imprinted is the "strong legal system", "relative stable social order", and lastly luck no matter how hefty. And this is proved by the following remarks about how in France and Scotland a presumably high number of documents were lost, which invalidates the supposed "careful record-keeping" being a relevant reason. There's other examples where sacks, destruction or natural phenomena destroyed complete archives of many states, in Europe and elsewhere. This is not to say that the conclusions of the article are wrong or that in fact English book keeping wasn't good or even better than any of the other mentioned here, in some, a few, many or all cases, it's just the way it's written. *edit formatting

sn41 6y ago

Isn't this the work by Max Weber? The main idea here is that predestination of Calvin believed that certain people were predestined for salvation, and others were not. But the implication is that material wealth is an indication of whether one is to be saved or not. Weber points out that even though there were always wealthy classes all over the world - he is quite eclectic and treats ancient India, Babylon, China and Japan - modern capitalism and earning money for the sake of earning money, not for enjoying resulting luxuries, is Protestant in nature. I am not an expert on Catholic viewpoint, but many religions (other than Calvinism as Weber sees it) tend to see wealth as a hindrance to salvation - e.g. camel through the eye of the needle etc. But the doctrine of karma etc. do tend to emphasize work for work's sake. So I am not sure I completely agree with Weber (he has works on Hinduism, Judaism etc. which are also insightful and unique takes on religion).

anthk 6y ago

I am from Spain, some of oldest dirty jokes/limericks date back to Middle Ages, too.

throw0101a 6y ago

The "Protestant" work ethic existed before Protestentism. See for example: > Andersen et al found that the location monasteries of the Catholic Order of Cistercians, and specifically their density, highly correlated to this work ethic in later centuries;[18] ninety percent of these monasteries were founded before the year 1300 AD. Joseph Henrich found that this correlation extends right up to the twenty-first century.[19] * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_work_ethic#Criticism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_work_ethic#Criticis... * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cistercians https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cistercians