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Docker and Redhat were both founding members of OCI. CoreOS probably was responsible for a lot of the initial conversations. They wanted a standardized containe

by SEJeff 6y ago

Docker and Redhat were both founding members of OCI. CoreOS probably was responsible for a lot of the initial conversations. They wanted a standardized container runtime after finding some limitations in docker which caused them to create rkt. Docker inc wasn’t super into changing anything and as history as shown, wasn’t terribly into working well with others. The industry was going to move forward without them but they were offered a spot on the OCI if they played ball. OCI would have made docker inc entirely irrelevant if they didn’t join it. They donated runc (I was wrong originally, dyslexia sucks sometimes) as the reference implementation so docker continued to stay at the forefront. They donated a very minimal implementation of containerd to the CNCF when kubernetes wanted to do things with the container runtime interface (CRI) to make it more pluggable. As a more purpose built CRI, crio is better suited for k8s. Docker did not create OCI any more than Redhat did. Redhat and a collection of other orgs did. Docker and Redhat were besties after Alexander Larson added device mapper support to docker. This is what allowed docker to run on any Linux distro that didn’t include the out of tree aufs. Look it up. Redhat then made a lot of money doing container multihost orchestration with openshift v3, which deprecated their own tool, geard. When Docker inc accepted a ton of VC money, they realized they actually had to monetize things. This is the part where the relationship started to seriously sour. The company that helped make them so popular was now suddenly a huge competitor. This is what lead to the problem. It wasn’t a grudge from Redhat I mentioned in the linked tweet. It was docker inc thinking docker was anything other than commodity. It just is some very nice UX and cli tooling with a container registry around Linux namespace and Linux control groups. They just put it all together very nicely for developers to ship code faster. Podman is also a commodity. At its core, it just is some json parsing and pretty wrapping around Linux namespace and cgroups. Redhat knows this, and they don’t hide it. They monetize openshift and quay, not podman. Sorry if this is a bit scrambled. Long posts on mobile are difficult.

zapita 6y ago
I understand what you’re saying but it is incorrect. Docker was in fact the originator of OCI in every way that matters. They made the decision to create it; drafted the founding documents and went back and forth with Linux Foundation on the content; chose the names (initially OCF, then later OCI); negotiated with LF the governance structure and initial board composition; negotiated the list of external maintainers with commit access, including a Red Hat and CoreOS employee; chose the announcement date and venue; drafted the announcement content along with LF; coordinated with PR teams of other founding members. All this in addition to being the original authors of both the spec and implementation. Neither Red Hat nor CoreOS were involved in any of those steps, nor were they even aware of them until the last minute. When they were invited it was on a “take it or leave it” basis. They took it, then tried to pre-empt the Docker/LF announcement by a few hours to make it look like they were launching it. Those were tense days and there was very little trust between those companies. Source: I was involved in the process of creating OCI.
- SEJeff 6y ago
  Well thanks for your input, and I stand corrected. I liked Solomon and he always seemed like a super nice guy when I met him, but it did seem that there was a bit of a crisis when Docker Inc realized, "Oh shit, we have to make money for these VCs!" and then it got really awkward. I was sad to see it happen as Dan Walsh and Solomon are both really good peeps to me.
  - zapita 6y ago
    Yeah the tensions were really unfortunate. In the long run it resulted in more competition which benefits all of us; but in the short term it made people’s lives more stressful than they needed to be. I actually have a slightly different explanation of what set it off. I don’t buy the “docker is suddenly under pressure to make money” explanation. Docker was a VC funded startup since 2010. They already had a business when they pivoted to Docker. As far as I know they kept the same investors and board. So it seems unlikely that they suddenly remembered that they needed to make money. More likely they planned to make Docker as ubiquitous a platform as they could, at which point there are many known avenues to monetize. Also, the CEO they brought on board, Ben Golub, had just spent a year at Red Hat after selling his previous startup to them. So he was certainly familiar with Red Hat’s business and strategy, and probably on friendly terms with their leadership (this is speculation on my part). And in the early days Red Hat and Docker were in fact partners. Docker engineers even implemented features specifically to please Red Hat; for example devicemapper support and storage drivers, which were developed by Docker for Red Hat. The problem is that the partnership was built on a misunderstanding. Docker was hoping for a distribution deal between the two businesses, with revenue share etc. and intended to keep control of their open-source project. Whereas Red Hat was hoping to make Docker their “new Linux” which involved no partnership with Docker and instead taking or at least sharing control of the project as they did with Linux. Each side was slow to realize the true intentions of the other, whether by naivete or deception I don’t know. This still surprises me because both side’s intentions were rational and entirely predictable. I think a lot of wishful thinking, and possibly some individual incompetence in leadership were involved. For example Red Hat has never actually partnered with a smaller startup and shared revenue with them in the way Docker was hoping, so I’m not sure what made them so confident it would happen. In any case, when the fog lifted, bitterness and conflict quickly followed. In the end Red Hat shifted gears to Kubernetes as their “new Linux” which was a much better match for them. Then proceeded to rewrite history to minimize Docker’s role; which is unfortunate but understandable, I guess. I know a lot of Docker employees are personally hurt by it, to this day. It doesn’t feel good to see your work swept under the rug for reasons of competition and ego.

by SEJeff 6y ago

zapita 6y ago

I understand what you’re saying but it is incorrect. Docker was in fact the originator of OCI in every way that matters. They made the decision to create it; drafted the founding documents and went back and forth with Linux Foundation on the content; chose the names (initially OCF, then later OCI); negotiated with LF the governance structure and initial board composition; negotiated the list of external maintainers with commit access, including a Red Hat and CoreOS employee; chose the announcement date and venue; drafted the announcement content along with LF; coordinated with PR teams of other founding members. All this in addition to being the original authors of both the spec and implementation. Neither Red Hat nor CoreOS were involved in any of those steps, nor were they even aware of them until the last minute. When they were invited it was on a “take it or leave it” basis. They took it, then tried to pre-empt the Docker/LF announcement by a few hours to make it look like they were launching it. Those were tense days and there was very little trust between those companies. Source: I was involved in the process of creating OCI.

SEJeff 6y ago
Well thanks for your input, and I stand corrected. I liked Solomon and he always seemed like a super nice guy when I met him, but it did seem that there was a bit of a crisis when Docker Inc realized, "Oh shit, we have to make money for these VCs!" and then it got really awkward. I was sad to see it happen as Dan Walsh and Solomon are both really good peeps to me.
- zapita 6y ago
  Yeah the tensions were really unfortunate. In the long run it resulted in more competition which benefits all of us; but in the short term it made people’s lives more stressful than they needed to be. I actually have a slightly different explanation of what set it off. I don’t buy the “docker is suddenly under pressure to make money” explanation. Docker was a VC funded startup since 2010. They already had a business when they pivoted to Docker. As far as I know they kept the same investors and board. So it seems unlikely that they suddenly remembered that they needed to make money. More likely they planned to make Docker as ubiquitous a platform as they could, at which point there are many known avenues to monetize. Also, the CEO they brought on board, Ben Golub, had just spent a year at Red Hat after selling his previous startup to them. So he was certainly familiar with Red Hat’s business and strategy, and probably on friendly terms with their leadership (this is speculation on my part). And in the early days Red Hat and Docker were in fact partners. Docker engineers even implemented features specifically to please Red Hat; for example devicemapper support and storage drivers, which were developed by Docker for Red Hat. The problem is that the partnership was built on a misunderstanding. Docker was hoping for a distribution deal between the two businesses, with revenue share etc. and intended to keep control of their open-source project. Whereas Red Hat was hoping to make Docker their “new Linux” which involved no partnership with Docker and instead taking or at least sharing control of the project as they did with Linux. Each side was slow to realize the true intentions of the other, whether by naivete or deception I don’t know. This still surprises me because both side’s intentions were rational and entirely predictable. I think a lot of wishful thinking, and possibly some individual incompetence in leadership were involved. For example Red Hat has never actually partnered with a smaller startup and shared revenue with them in the way Docker was hoping, so I’m not sure what made them so confident it would happen. In any case, when the fog lifted, bitterness and conflict quickly followed. In the end Red Hat shifted gears to Kubernetes as their “new Linux” which was a much better match for them. Then proceeded to rewrite history to minimize Docker’s role; which is unfortunate but understandable, I guess. I know a lot of Docker employees are personally hurt by it, to this day. It doesn’t feel good to see your work swept under the rug for reasons of competition and ego.