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I can say the same things about artwork or gold. To me these things are totally useless, paint on a canvas (when I could just look at a photo of the same thing

I can say the same things about artwork or gold. To me these things are totally useless, paint on a canvas (when I could just look at a photo of the same thing) and a shiny piece of metal, no utility whatsoever, who cares? Well the value doesn't come from one person's assertion of value, it's supply and demand. Apparently enough people like paint on a canvas and shiny metal for their own reasons.

Tijdreiziger 6y ago
Paint on a canvas doesn't waste the same amount of electricity as the country of Argentina.
- hntrader 6y ago
  That's a negative externality which doesn't pertain to how valid the current valuation is, which is the subject I was addressing. Externalities by definition don't feature into the price, although perhaps they do only to a very small extent in the case of BTC because of political/regulation risks leading to a risk premium effect.
nexthash 6y ago
Sorry, but in case you don't have much intuition, let me fill you in. People value gold and artwork because it is beautiful and you can have it for yourself. Gold also has several utilitarian uses. Now compare these things to a digital token. Can I frame and admire a digital token? Can I use it for anything? Do I even understand what it is or how it works most of the time? No. So it therefore has no value for me. Millions of people like me have the same basic intuition. Others, like you, are driven by ideology and see digital tokens as something nice and valuable that can be "kept", for ideological reasons. This value has no basis in anything physical like looks or usefulness, and has no battle-tested authority telling you it is responsible for making it useful. Decentralization doesn't count, because as I've already said many times there is no trust or recourse in a decentralized system with random people. So you haven't given me a reason for why a "Bitcoin" should be worth $40k+. That's why I say its sad that authorities in other countries are so unreliable that people have to buy into this disreputable game to stay afloat.
- efwfwef 6y ago
  Yes you can frame and admire a digital token, or rather the address holding the funds. Gold's value has nothing to do with its utility. I don't get your people's arguments. You keep repeating "a digital asset can't have real value" when the last 10 years have proven you wrong. You fool!
  - nexthash 6y ago
    So you pay $40k+ for bitcoin just so you can frame some numbers and letters and say you paid $40k+ for those numbers and letters? Gold's value comes from the fact that it doesn't dull or dim over time, and has many uses in the electronics and jewelry industries. If you have the resources to get gold and own it, that is a clear sign of status and value. Can't say the same with crypto for any counts. All of crypto's value comes from speculation. Over the last 10 years, I've seen the same tired drum beat, that 'crypto is valuable because of decentralization, supply regulation, and censorship resistance' but these are so vapid and completely different from reality and what people actually need. There is no convenience, no government backing, and no trust. So the only people using these fake tokens are disreputables and hedge funds/speculators looking to exploit and get fun returns.
    - efwfwef 6y ago
      No, Gold value comes from the fact that we all agreed that it should have a value, and it's scarce. Same for Bitcoin. And yes you can parade the fact that you own a bitcoin address, this is after all probably the only reason most people know about Craig S. Wright > There is no convenience, no government backing, and no trust convenience is in stablecoins, government backing is in CBDC, trust is anchored at the foundation of any cryptocurrency project... Let me put it this way: as long as people will find ways to do things with Bitcoin (remittances, darkmarket, etc.) that they couldn't do with Gold or USD or whatever, then it'll have value. 40k of value? I don't know, but it will still have value.
      - nexthash 6y ago
        A little bit of value. But as a decentralized utopian panacea? Nope. If I was given the choice between a Bitcoin and a bar of gold, I'd definitely take the bar of gold.

Tijdreiziger 6y ago

Paint on a canvas doesn't waste the same amount of electricity as the country of Argentina.

hntrader 6y ago
That's a negative externality which doesn't pertain to how valid the current valuation is, which is the subject I was addressing. Externalities by definition don't feature into the price, although perhaps they do only to a very small extent in the case of BTC because of political/regulation risks leading to a risk premium effect.

nexthash 6y ago

Sorry, but in case you don't have much intuition, let me fill you in. People value gold and artwork because it is beautiful and you can have it for yourself. Gold also has several utilitarian uses. Now compare these things to a digital token. Can I frame and admire a digital token? Can I use it for anything? Do I even understand what it is or how it works most of the time? No. So it therefore has no value for me. Millions of people like me have the same basic intuition. Others, like you, are driven by ideology and see digital tokens as something nice and valuable that can be "kept", for ideological reasons. This value has no basis in anything physical like looks or usefulness, and has no battle-tested authority telling you it is responsible for making it useful. Decentralization doesn't count, because as I've already said many times there is no trust or recourse in a decentralized system with random people. So you haven't given me a reason for why a "Bitcoin" should be worth $40k+. That's why I say its sad that authorities in other countries are so unreliable that people have to buy into this disreputable game to stay afloat.

efwfwef 6y ago
Yes you can frame and admire a digital token, or rather the address holding the funds. Gold's value has nothing to do with its utility. I don't get your people's arguments. You keep repeating "a digital asset can't have real value" when the last 10 years have proven you wrong. You fool!
- nexthash 6y ago
  So you pay $40k+ for bitcoin just so you can frame some numbers and letters and say you paid $40k+ for those numbers and letters? Gold's value comes from the fact that it doesn't dull or dim over time, and has many uses in the electronics and jewelry industries. If you have the resources to get gold and own it, that is a clear sign of status and value. Can't say the same with crypto for any counts. All of crypto's value comes from speculation. Over the last 10 years, I've seen the same tired drum beat, that 'crypto is valuable because of decentralization, supply regulation, and censorship resistance' but these are so vapid and completely different from reality and what people actually need. There is no convenience, no government backing, and no trust. So the only people using these fake tokens are disreputables and hedge funds/speculators looking to exploit and get fun returns.
  - efwfwef 6y ago
    No, Gold value comes from the fact that we all agreed that it should have a value, and it's scarce. Same for Bitcoin. And yes you can parade the fact that you own a bitcoin address, this is after all probably the only reason most people know about Craig S. Wright > There is no convenience, no government backing, and no trust convenience is in stablecoins, government backing is in CBDC, trust is anchored at the foundation of any cryptocurrency project... Let me put it this way: as long as people will find ways to do things with Bitcoin (remittances, darkmarket, etc.) that they couldn't do with Gold or USD or whatever, then it'll have value. 40k of value? I don't know, but it will still have value.
    - nexthash 6y ago
      A little bit of value. But as a decentralized utopian panacea? Nope. If I was given the choice between a Bitcoin and a bar of gold, I'd definitely take the bar of gold.