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> Every government has taxes. > In the U.S. you have the option of leaving if you find the cost too high. So you acknowledge that there’s no alternative, but

> Every government has taxes. > In the U.S. you have the option of leaving if you find the cost too high. So you acknowledge that there’s no alternative, but you still act like people have the choice of an alternative. > This is the system we have developed for people to pay for the privilege of earning in this society. Some people believe that the freedom to earn a living is a right, not a privilege.

syops 6y ago
There is an alternative. Go somewhere else if the cost of living in this society is too high. Earning a tax free living clearly isn’t a right according to the U.S. Constitution. Go elsewhere if the cost is too high or advocate for lowering the cost. It’s a strange position to take that the benefits of the society you live in ought to be free to you when those benefits have costs.
- chordalkeyboard 6y ago
  > There is an alternative. Go somewhere else if the cost of living in this society is too high. What if the cost of living is high somewhere else as well? > Earning a tax free living clearly isn’t a right according to the U.S. Constitution. The US Constitution recognizes rights, it doesn’t confer them or exhaustively catalog them. > Go elsewhere if the cost is too high or advocate for lowering the cost. This discussion could be an example. > It’s a strange position to take that the benefits of the society you live ought to be free to you when those benefits have costs. Its a strange position to be accused of wanting things for free when one identifies unnecessary waste.
  - Apocryphon 6y ago
    There's a difference between pointing out government waste, wanting to lower taxes, wanting a smaller government, etc. and claiming that taxes are inherently violence, as the original post did.
  - syops 6y ago
    If the cost of living in a different country is too high then I suppose you are destined to feel oppressed for the rest of your life. It’s a strange position to take. Given that very few people feel your way perhaps it is worthwhile to consider that your position is an extreme one and causing you unnecessary distress. The Constitution gives government the power to tax. Therefore in this society earning a tax free income is not a right as far as this society is concerned. I apologize for not making that clearer. The person I responded to did not claim there was unnecessary waste and thus taxes ought to be lower. Their position appears to be that the act of taxation is theft (since it’s done through violent means). Then you chimed in without stating that your position differs. You didn’t give any indication to having a different position to the person I responded to. Thank you for the discussion. I will read and contemplate your response but will not respond further. It appears to me that we have irreconcilable differences of opinion on the matter.
Apocryphon 6y ago
The right of exit, as they say, is still there. > Some people believe that the freedom to earn a living is a right, not a privilege. There is also freedom in the security of living in a content and happy society that isn't setting up guillotines because massive underclasses have been pushed to their breaking points. The price you pay for civilization, and so on.
- chordalkeyboard 6y ago
  > The right of exit, as they say, is still there. The existence of rights does not obviate the possibility that they will be infringed upon. > There is also freedom in the security of living in a content and happy society that isn't setting up guillotines because massive underclasses have been pushed to their breaking points. The price you pay for civilization, and so on. So I’d really like these leaders to quit pushing us to the breaking point but they keep doing things that benefit themselves and their cronies and telling me its for my own good. So I’m not really sympathetic to the idea that civilization requires central banks run by oligarchs or tax laws (written for the benefit of oligarchs) that punish productivity and reward sloth.
  - Apocryphon 6y ago
    It does not require endorsement of the current leaders nor their system to recognize the very basic and banal fact that taxation is a valid mechanism that a society uses to sustain itself. This doesn't even require one to be in favor of specific current taxes, it's simply acknowledging that taxation as a principle is not some sort of ludicrously unjust abomination. Taxation predates central banks.
    - chordalkeyboard 6y ago
      > very basic and banal fact that taxation is a valid mechanism that a society uses to sustain itself. Validity in this case is not a fact it is an opinion or value judgment that implies that it is moral/ethical to use coercion to extract money from citizens. You may agree with this. You may not claim it as a fact. > taxation as a principle is not some sort of ludicrously unjust abomination Thats your opinion and the oligarchs who decide how tax money is spent appreciate your conformity.

syops 6y ago

There is an alternative. Go somewhere else if the cost of living in this society is too high. Earning a tax free living clearly isn’t a right according to the U.S. Constitution. Go elsewhere if the cost is too high or advocate for lowering the cost. It’s a strange position to take that the benefits of the society you live in ought to be free to you when those benefits have costs.

chordalkeyboard 6y ago
> There is an alternative. Go somewhere else if the cost of living in this society is too high. What if the cost of living is high somewhere else as well? > Earning a tax free living clearly isn’t a right according to the U.S. Constitution. The US Constitution recognizes rights, it doesn’t confer them or exhaustively catalog them. > Go elsewhere if the cost is too high or advocate for lowering the cost. This discussion could be an example. > It’s a strange position to take that the benefits of the society you live ought to be free to you when those benefits have costs. Its a strange position to be accused of wanting things for free when one identifies unnecessary waste.
- Apocryphon 6y ago
  There's a difference between pointing out government waste, wanting to lower taxes, wanting a smaller government, etc. and claiming that taxes are inherently violence, as the original post did.
- syops 6y ago
  If the cost of living in a different country is too high then I suppose you are destined to feel oppressed for the rest of your life. It’s a strange position to take. Given that very few people feel your way perhaps it is worthwhile to consider that your position is an extreme one and causing you unnecessary distress. The Constitution gives government the power to tax. Therefore in this society earning a tax free income is not a right as far as this society is concerned. I apologize for not making that clearer. The person I responded to did not claim there was unnecessary waste and thus taxes ought to be lower. Their position appears to be that the act of taxation is theft (since it’s done through violent means). Then you chimed in without stating that your position differs. You didn’t give any indication to having a different position to the person I responded to. Thank you for the discussion. I will read and contemplate your response but will not respond further. It appears to me that we have irreconcilable differences of opinion on the matter.

Apocryphon 6y ago

The right of exit, as they say, is still there. > Some people believe that the freedom to earn a living is a right, not a privilege. There is also freedom in the security of living in a content and happy society that isn't setting up guillotines because massive underclasses have been pushed to their breaking points. The price you pay for civilization, and so on.

chordalkeyboard 6y ago
> The right of exit, as they say, is still there. The existence of rights does not obviate the possibility that they will be infringed upon. > There is also freedom in the security of living in a content and happy society that isn't setting up guillotines because massive underclasses have been pushed to their breaking points. The price you pay for civilization, and so on. So I’d really like these leaders to quit pushing us to the breaking point but they keep doing things that benefit themselves and their cronies and telling me its for my own good. So I’m not really sympathetic to the idea that civilization requires central banks run by oligarchs or tax laws (written for the benefit of oligarchs) that punish productivity and reward sloth.
- Apocryphon 6y ago
  It does not require endorsement of the current leaders nor their system to recognize the very basic and banal fact that taxation is a valid mechanism that a society uses to sustain itself. This doesn't even require one to be in favor of specific current taxes, it's simply acknowledging that taxation as a principle is not some sort of ludicrously unjust abomination. Taxation predates central banks.
  - chordalkeyboard 6y ago
    > very basic and banal fact that taxation is a valid mechanism that a society uses to sustain itself. Validity in this case is not a fact it is an opinion or value judgment that implies that it is moral/ethical to use coercion to extract money from citizens. You may agree with this. You may not claim it as a fact. > taxation as a principle is not some sort of ludicrously unjust abomination Thats your opinion and the oligarchs who decide how tax money is spent appreciate your conformity.