5 ms·

Yes, an important point. This is one thing the Netherlands is far better at than Germany (Frankfurt). I think it's because Dutch is spoken by rather few people

Yes, an important point. This is one thing the Netherlands is far better at than Germany (Frankfurt). I think it's because Dutch is spoken by rather few people globally, whereas German has ~100m speakers, so the pressure to learn English there isn't as strong.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
FooBarWidget 6y ago
I think another reason is that kids tv shows used to be broadcasted with English dubs and Dutch subs. That's how many kids learned English, myself included. Sadly they've moved away from that practice. Everything's Dutch dubbed now.
- actuator 6y ago
  I would imagine that now English content would be even more easy to obtain as most mediums now support multiple languages flawlessly.
  - jakub_g 6y ago
    Defaults matter.
- kazen44 6y ago
  Also, video games tended to not be translated into dutch. Mainly because it is suchs a small language. Me and most of my peers learned most english from playing video games and watching movies and tv shows with subtitels, mostly because spoken dutch was not available.
  - bambataa 6y ago
    How did that work with games? Did you have to stop and look things up, or did you already have a rough idea and just the exposure increased your fluency? I’ve tried putting my phone/computer into other languages, but within a few days I tend to phase out the changes and I don’t think I learned much.
    - ganzsz 6y ago
      Games that lean on conversation, Assassin's Creed for example, will sometimes have Dutch subtitles. Those helped me when I was younger, also enabling English subtitles in series and games. But tbh a big thing is the exposure at a young age, I tried to do the same thing with Spanish series but a new language simply doesn't stick as well as it did 15 years ago.
- Fnoord 6y ago
  They were dubbed for the very young back 30 years ago, and still are. I prefer to watch in original language (often means English though I am quite fond of German cinema) with English subs. But my mother (~70) would prefer Dutch subs, Dutch dub, or Dutch movie. Its fantastic we got so much choice. Perfect to practice another language, dabble into it. As already mentioned though, defaults matter.
- taurath 6y ago
  A crazy stat for me is that as a percentage of population more people in the Netherlands speak English than do in the US. When people in the US ask me for recommendations as to where to go in Europe I suggest the Netherlands first because it’s so incredibly easy to get around with just English.
  - joubert 6y ago
    > A crazy stat for me is that as a percentage of population more people in the Netherlands speak English than do in the US. The US is very diverse. A fun stat is that there are over 600 languages spoken in New York metro, making it one of the most linguistically diverse areas in the world. https://www.6sqft.com/new-map-shows-over-600-languages-spoken-in-nyc/ https://www.6sqft.com/new-map-shows-over-600-languages-spoke...
    - taurath 6y ago
      Oh goodness do I know it! I worked on education software messaging there. Schools have to have so many resources just to be able to speak to parents.
mamon 6y ago
100m of German speakers are concentrated in three neighbor countries: Germany, Austria, Switzerland. It's not like a German can go to a different continent and find people speaking their language (like a Spanish or French person would). I don't really understand their unwillingness to learn foreign languages - is it just their pride? :)
- mixmastamyk 6y ago
  They definitely learn, it is Europe after all, they just don't use it as much for business.
  - kazen44 6y ago
    Also, in my experience, learning english to do bussiness with other european who also learn english mainly for bussiness purposes gives a different kind of language then learning english for everyday use. see also "euro english"[0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euro_English https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euro_English
orange_tee 6y ago
No, it has nothing to do with that. It's policy driven. The Dutch realized they can get in on what the UK was getting if they swallowed their pride and started speaking more English and allowing English as a language of business. Germans are too proud and expect the world to start speaking German instead. I lived in both countries, Germans have equally good English, but you would struggle to use English in official capacity in Germany. Whereas in the Netherlands they are very accommodating, and not because they are kinder. They do this on purpose, cause they know they can (and did in fact) attract a lot of foreign money that way.
- sebmellen 6y ago
  Hmmm, I haven't found it to be true that Germans and Dutch people speak English equally well. There really is a pronounced difference, especially in the older generations, but also in younger generations. I speak German when in Germany, so of course I have some bias, but there is evidence to back this up [1]. As for how intentional it is, your theory seems plausible. That said, I don't know of any real evidence for it — even if it is an organized conspiracy, most normal Dutch citizens aren't aware of it. [1]: https://www.wittenborg.eu/netherlands-top-english-speaking-country.htm https://www.wittenborg.eu/netherlands-top-english-speaking-c...
- Tarsul 6y ago
  If you were using the same arguments about the French instead of the Germans, I'd agree. However, for (us) Germans I wouldn't say it's so much proudness as it is about having a huge market by itself (like GP said) and also its industries are very strong, meaning Germany doesn't have to rely on being a tax haven or its financial services as much as other countries. I do agree that Germans have a certain proudness but arguably since WW2 we are also more humbled than we probably were before and it still shows (also because of how much we are being humbled by our education and also by our media culture. Not as much as the Japanese, though :)).
- m00dy 6y ago
  I spent considerable amount of time in both countries and I can clearly say that Germans are not even close to Dutch in their english or willingness to learn english. I don't even want to talk about technology adoption in Germany. That is another discussion. Top best english speakers are either Dutch or Swedish in mainland Europe.
adamnemecek 6y ago
It’s also because Dutch is closer to English. Frisian is the closest language to Old English.
- gerdesj 6y ago
  Unfortunately modern English is rather different to Old English. I can read later Middle English (Chaucer to Shakespear) with some difficulty but Old English is very hard. The WP page on Frisian Languages has this to say early on: "However, modern English and Frisian are not mutually intelligible, nor are Frisian languages intelligible among themselves, due to independent linguistic innovations and foreign influences." To give you a tiny idea of what we are up against here consider the name of the town I live in: Yeovil. When I first came here I thought - French obvs! Yeo-ville ie the town on the river Yeo. Hmm how wrong can I get: actually it was called Gifle in the 500s or so, which means "bend in the river" in a Saxonish language long gone - that's your old Frisian/German/Dutch/Angle thing. Morph the G into a Y and the f into a v, throw in a vowel shift and squint a bit and there you go. There are over 60 spellings recorded for this little town, including Euwell, Evill, Ivel and Gevelle. The local rugby team is called the Ivel Barbarians. The river is actually named after the town, which is named for a feature in the river! In Germany there is a town called Wegburg (I had my ears operated on in the hospital there in the '70s) and in England there is a town called Weybury - that one is easy to work out. Now pull back and look at modern English, Dutch, the Frisian collection of languages, German etc ie all the languages that are collected together as "Germanic". They are all rather different these days. I can't even pronounce van Gogh properly despite having a Dutchman repeatedly telling me how (something like "fan hoch"). I can say Moenchengladbach well enough but lets face it the name is pretty obvious even if you ignore the umlaut and the ch sound at the end - both sounds don't exist in modern English. I failed German O level but on the bright side I also failed French too.
- smcl 6y ago
  I don't know how correct this is linguistically, but it rings true for me anecdotally. The company I work for is headquartered in Amsterdam and when I hear my Dutch colleagues talking to each other some snippets have an eerily English feel in terms of their rhythm, tone and sound[0]. The best way I can describe it is by reference to this image: https://twitter.com/melip0ne/status/1120503955526750208 https://twitter.com/melip0ne/status/1120503955526750208 - it's composed of familiar looking blobs, but after a few seconds you know you don't recognise it at all and your pattern-matching circuits are just being a bit over-eager. That's the feeling I often get when I hear Dutch. [0] - of course the "gh" sound is not present in English so when that pops up you are immediately jolted back to reality. It's not even like the Scots "ch", it's further down the throat.
dzonga 6y ago
the dutch speak better english than the englishmen in liverpool lol.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

FooBarWidget 6y ago

I think another reason is that kids tv shows used to be broadcasted with English dubs and Dutch subs. That's how many kids learned English, myself included. Sadly they've moved away from that practice. Everything's Dutch dubbed now.

actuator 6y ago
I would imagine that now English content would be even more easy to obtain as most mediums now support multiple languages flawlessly.
- jakub_g 6y ago
  Defaults matter.
kazen44 6y ago
Also, video games tended to not be translated into dutch. Mainly because it is suchs a small language. Me and most of my peers learned most english from playing video games and watching movies and tv shows with subtitels, mostly because spoken dutch was not available.
- bambataa 6y ago
  How did that work with games? Did you have to stop and look things up, or did you already have a rough idea and just the exposure increased your fluency? I’ve tried putting my phone/computer into other languages, but within a few days I tend to phase out the changes and I don’t think I learned much.
  - ganzsz 6y ago
    Games that lean on conversation, Assassin's Creed for example, will sometimes have Dutch subtitles. Those helped me when I was younger, also enabling English subtitles in series and games. But tbh a big thing is the exposure at a young age, I tried to do the same thing with Spanish series but a new language simply doesn't stick as well as it did 15 years ago.
Fnoord 6y ago
They were dubbed for the very young back 30 years ago, and still are. I prefer to watch in original language (often means English though I am quite fond of German cinema) with English subs. But my mother (~70) would prefer Dutch subs, Dutch dub, or Dutch movie. Its fantastic we got so much choice. Perfect to practice another language, dabble into it. As already mentioned though, defaults matter.
taurath 6y ago
A crazy stat for me is that as a percentage of population more people in the Netherlands speak English than do in the US. When people in the US ask me for recommendations as to where to go in Europe I suggest the Netherlands first because it’s so incredibly easy to get around with just English.
- joubert 6y ago
  > A crazy stat for me is that as a percentage of population more people in the Netherlands speak English than do in the US. The US is very diverse. A fun stat is that there are over 600 languages spoken in New York metro, making it one of the most linguistically diverse areas in the world. https://www.6sqft.com/new-map-shows-over-600-languages-spoken-in-nyc/ https://www.6sqft.com/new-map-shows-over-600-languages-spoke...
  - taurath 6y ago
    Oh goodness do I know it! I worked on education software messaging there. Schools have to have so many resources just to be able to speak to parents.

mamon 6y ago

100m of German speakers are concentrated in three neighbor countries: Germany, Austria, Switzerland. It's not like a German can go to a different continent and find people speaking their language (like a Spanish or French person would). I don't really understand their unwillingness to learn foreign languages - is it just their pride? :)

mixmastamyk 6y ago
They definitely learn, it is Europe after all, they just don't use it as much for business.
- kazen44 6y ago
  Also, in my experience, learning english to do bussiness with other european who also learn english mainly for bussiness purposes gives a different kind of language then learning english for everyday use. see also "euro english"[0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euro_English https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euro_English

orange_tee 6y ago

No, it has nothing to do with that. It's policy driven. The Dutch realized they can get in on what the UK was getting if they swallowed their pride and started speaking more English and allowing English as a language of business. Germans are too proud and expect the world to start speaking German instead. I lived in both countries, Germans have equally good English, but you would struggle to use English in official capacity in Germany. Whereas in the Netherlands they are very accommodating, and not because they are kinder. They do this on purpose, cause they know they can (and did in fact) attract a lot of foreign money that way.

sebmellen 6y ago
Hmmm, I haven't found it to be true that Germans and Dutch people speak English equally well. There really is a pronounced difference, especially in the older generations, but also in younger generations. I speak German when in Germany, so of course I have some bias, but there is evidence to back this up [1]. As for how intentional it is, your theory seems plausible. That said, I don't know of any real evidence for it — even if it is an organized conspiracy, most normal Dutch citizens aren't aware of it. [1]: https://www.wittenborg.eu/netherlands-top-english-speaking-country.htm https://www.wittenborg.eu/netherlands-top-english-speaking-c...
Tarsul 6y ago
If you were using the same arguments about the French instead of the Germans, I'd agree. However, for (us) Germans I wouldn't say it's so much proudness as it is about having a huge market by itself (like GP said) and also its industries are very strong, meaning Germany doesn't have to rely on being a tax haven or its financial services as much as other countries. I do agree that Germans have a certain proudness but arguably since WW2 we are also more humbled than we probably were before and it still shows (also because of how much we are being humbled by our education and also by our media culture. Not as much as the Japanese, though :)).
m00dy 6y ago
I spent considerable amount of time in both countries and I can clearly say that Germans are not even close to Dutch in their english or willingness to learn english. I don't even want to talk about technology adoption in Germany. That is another discussion. Top best english speakers are either Dutch or Swedish in mainland Europe.

adamnemecek 6y ago

It’s also because Dutch is closer to English. Frisian is the closest language to Old English.

gerdesj 6y ago
Unfortunately modern English is rather different to Old English. I can read later Middle English (Chaucer to Shakespear) with some difficulty but Old English is very hard. The WP page on Frisian Languages has this to say early on: "However, modern English and Frisian are not mutually intelligible, nor are Frisian languages intelligible among themselves, due to independent linguistic innovations and foreign influences." To give you a tiny idea of what we are up against here consider the name of the town I live in: Yeovil. When I first came here I thought - French obvs! Yeo-ville ie the town on the river Yeo. Hmm how wrong can I get: actually it was called Gifle in the 500s or so, which means "bend in the river" in a Saxonish language long gone - that's your old Frisian/German/Dutch/Angle thing. Morph the G into a Y and the f into a v, throw in a vowel shift and squint a bit and there you go. There are over 60 spellings recorded for this little town, including Euwell, Evill, Ivel and Gevelle. The local rugby team is called the Ivel Barbarians. The river is actually named after the town, which is named for a feature in the river! In Germany there is a town called Wegburg (I had my ears operated on in the hospital there in the '70s) and in England there is a town called Weybury - that one is easy to work out. Now pull back and look at modern English, Dutch, the Frisian collection of languages, German etc ie all the languages that are collected together as "Germanic". They are all rather different these days. I can't even pronounce van Gogh properly despite having a Dutchman repeatedly telling me how (something like "fan hoch"). I can say Moenchengladbach well enough but lets face it the name is pretty obvious even if you ignore the umlaut and the ch sound at the end - both sounds don't exist in modern English. I failed German O level but on the bright side I also failed French too.
smcl 6y ago
I don't know how correct this is linguistically, but it rings true for me anecdotally. The company I work for is headquartered in Amsterdam and when I hear my Dutch colleagues talking to each other some snippets have an eerily English feel in terms of their rhythm, tone and sound[0]. The best way I can describe it is by reference to this image: https://twitter.com/melip0ne/status/1120503955526750208 https://twitter.com/melip0ne/status/1120503955526750208 - it's composed of familiar looking blobs, but after a few seconds you know you don't recognise it at all and your pattern-matching circuits are just being a bit over-eager. That's the feeling I often get when I hear Dutch. [0] - of course the "gh" sound is not present in English so when that pops up you are immediately jolted back to reality. It's not even like the Scots "ch", it's further down the throat.

dzonga 6y ago

the dutch speak better english than the englishmen in liverpool lol.