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No, you are not. Cryptographic random() is an extremely niche use case that you shouldn't be using unless you're writing your own crypto libraries. (Don't do t

No, you are not. Cryptographic random() is an extremely niche use case that you shouldn't be using unless you're writing your own crypto libraries. (Don't do that.)

stickfigure 6y ago
Server-side folks generate random identifiers and shared secrets all the time. Yes, it's niche, but not "extremely" and you don't use a crypto library for this (you use secure random!)
- mreome 6y ago
  There is a difference between generating these kind of IDs and writing the generator for these kinds of IDs. You shouldn't be rolling your own UUID generator if you don't fully understand the concerns/requirements in regards to your source of randomness. Generally speaking, I'd agree the need for a cryptographicly secure random is niche in that it is limited to the implementation of specific libraries/functions that despite being widely used, should NOT be frequently re-implemented.
  - josephg 6y ago
    I do this in nodejs all the time for IDs: require(‘crypto’).randomBytes(15).toString(‘base64’) Is this bad practice? Can you say more about why?
    - cperciva 6y ago
      That's only 120 bits of entropy, which means that you'll get a collision after generating ~ 2^60 IDs. Ok, maybe you're not worried about that scale; but I normally recommend 256-bit IDs in order to make sure that you don't need to worry about that possibility.
tedunangst 6y ago
What bad things will happen if I use cryptographic random for a non niche use case?
- madsbuch 6y ago
  It is expensive to increase entropy of a random source. So for randomised algorithms you might not get the performance that merited the algorithms in the first place.
mreome 6y ago
It's not that you shouldn't be using it necessarily, it's just that for many cases (games, procedural generation, graphics, many kind of simulations) it's unnecessary and slow. In my experience if someone doesn't know if they need a cryptographicly secure random(), or if a given random() implementation is secure then they (a) don't need it or (b) are trying to implement something they shouldn't be.
jcranmer 6y ago
That's not true. To answer the question as to when you should use cryptographic random(), ask yourself "What is the worst that could happen if someone guesses the result of random()?" If the answer is "I don't know," go cryptrographic. You'll save your butt if you didn't know it was important. If the answer is along the lines of "someone could impersonate a user, or leak information they shouldn't see," for the love of all that is holy, use cryptographic. This is basically every scenario where you are using random to generate an ID of some kind, and while it's only truly critical if that ID is all you need for validation, it does provide another layer of security even if you also require other information to match before giving out elevated access. If the answer is "it defeats the algorithm I'm trying to do" (think something like ASLR, where you're randomizing the offsets of addresses so that attackers don't know where things are located), well, the reason why you need to use cryptographic should be blindingly obvious. If the answer is instead "they can reproduce my results," well, you shouldn't use cryptographic in this case. And that's not a lot of cases: Monte Carlo simulations, testing, fuzzing are the obvious poster children for this category, and indeed reproducibility in these cases tends to be a highly valuable feature rather than an anti-feature. Cryptographic random is almost never harmful to your application, and almost always provides some benefit in reducing guessability of your system. You should err on the side of using cryptographic random(), and only not use it when you are sure that guessability will not harm security in any way and you know that the cryptographic nature actively harms your application.
- mreome 6y ago
  I would argue that if you're asking yourself "What is the worst that could happen if someone guesses the result of random()?" and your answer is "I don't know," then you're doing something you shouldn't be doing. There are a lot of domains where security is a non-issue and performance is a huge concern (graphics, game logic, many kind of simulations, etc), and the default is the reverse... always just use the installed non-secure random() and if that's too slow consider other options. Having a flag you can enable to warn about a non-secure random() usage, when it makes sense for your company/usage, sure. But banning it outright makes no sense, and the default behavior you want is very situational.
  - 6y ago
creata 6y ago
Say you're making an online game, and you need an RNG on your server. Above all, this RNG needs to be unpredictable, or someone will easily game it. Most non-cryptographic PRNGs are very predictable, so it's dangerous to use them. I think this is a scenario that (a) isn't "extremely niche," and (b) warrants CSPRNGs.

No, you are not. Cryptographic random() is an extremely niche use case that you shouldn't be using unless you're writing your own crypto libraries. (Don't do that.)

stickfigure 6y ago

Server-side folks generate random identifiers and shared secrets all the time. Yes, it's niche, but not "extremely" and you don't use a crypto library for this (you use secure random!)

mreome 6y ago
There is a difference between generating these kind of IDs and writing the generator for these kinds of IDs. You shouldn't be rolling your own UUID generator if you don't fully understand the concerns/requirements in regards to your source of randomness. Generally speaking, I'd agree the need for a cryptographicly secure random is niche in that it is limited to the implementation of specific libraries/functions that despite being widely used, should NOT be frequently re-implemented.
- josephg 6y ago
  I do this in nodejs all the time for IDs: require(‘crypto’).randomBytes(15).toString(‘base64’) Is this bad practice? Can you say more about why?
  - cperciva 6y ago
    That's only 120 bits of entropy, which means that you'll get a collision after generating ~ 2^60 IDs. Ok, maybe you're not worried about that scale; but I normally recommend 256-bit IDs in order to make sure that you don't need to worry about that possibility.

tedunangst 6y ago

What bad things will happen if I use cryptographic random for a non niche use case?

madsbuch 6y ago
It is expensive to increase entropy of a random source. So for randomised algorithms you might not get the performance that merited the algorithms in the first place.

mreome 6y ago

It's not that you shouldn't be using it necessarily, it's just that for many cases (games, procedural generation, graphics, many kind of simulations) it's unnecessary and slow. In my experience if someone doesn't know if they need a cryptographicly secure random(), or if a given random() implementation is secure then they (a) don't need it or (b) are trying to implement something they shouldn't be.

jcranmer 6y ago

That's not true. To answer the question as to when you should use cryptographic random(), ask yourself "What is the worst that could happen if someone guesses the result of random()?" If the answer is "I don't know," go cryptrographic. You'll save your butt if you didn't know it was important. If the answer is along the lines of "someone could impersonate a user, or leak information they shouldn't see," for the love of all that is holy, use cryptographic. This is basically every scenario where you are using random to generate an ID of some kind, and while it's only truly critical if that ID is all you need for validation, it does provide another layer of security even if you also require other information to match before giving out elevated access. If the answer is "it defeats the algorithm I'm trying to do" (think something like ASLR, where you're randomizing the offsets of addresses so that attackers don't know where things are located), well, the reason why you need to use cryptographic should be blindingly obvious. If the answer is instead "they can reproduce my results," well, you shouldn't use cryptographic in this case. And that's not a lot of cases: Monte Carlo simulations, testing, fuzzing are the obvious poster children for this category, and indeed reproducibility in these cases tends to be a highly valuable feature rather than an anti-feature. Cryptographic random is almost never harmful to your application, and almost always provides some benefit in reducing guessability of your system. You should err on the side of using cryptographic random(), and only not use it when you are sure that guessability will not harm security in any way and you know that the cryptographic nature actively harms your application.

mreome 6y ago
I would argue that if you're asking yourself "What is the worst that could happen if someone guesses the result of random()?" and your answer is "I don't know," then you're doing something you shouldn't be doing. There are a lot of domains where security is a non-issue and performance is a huge concern (graphics, game logic, many kind of simulations, etc), and the default is the reverse... always just use the installed non-secure random() and if that's too slow consider other options. Having a flag you can enable to warn about a non-secure random() usage, when it makes sense for your company/usage, sure. But banning it outright makes no sense, and the default behavior you want is very situational.
- 6y ago

creata 6y ago

Say you're making an online game, and you need an RNG on your server. Above all, this RNG needs to be unpredictable, or someone will easily game it. Most non-cryptographic PRNGs are very predictable, so it's dangerous to use them. I think this is a scenario that (a) isn't "extremely niche," and (b) warrants CSPRNGs.