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This is a complex issue. Ideally we would have a much better organized rollout avoiding these scenarios. I don't think we ever want individual physicians using

This is a complex issue. Ideally we would have a much better organized rollout avoiding these scenarios. I don't think we ever want individual physicians using their own contacts list to find candidates regardless of good intention, it just opens the door up too much abuse. I don't think the penalty matches the crime, certainly not a criminal prosecution.

HelloMcFly 6y ago
If we can confidently confirm that 1) there are leftover vaccines, 2) good-faith efforts were made to administer them to the target audience, and 3) there were leftover vaccines that were definitely otherwise going to go to waste then I'm 100% fine with people administering to their contact list. I'd rather that 1000x over than unused vaccines be tossed into the garbage. We all lose with unused vaccines.
- JoshTko 6y ago
  It's just poor design to allow for good-faith. It's too easy for a bad actor to artificially create "leftover" doses to give to friends and family. Just don't allow doctor discretion and organize better for the next day, problem solved.
  - NMDaniel 6y ago
    > It's too easy for a bad actor to artificially create "leftover" doses to give to friends and family How? If X people made appointments in a day, then exactly X vaccines should be distributed for that day. Leftover vaccines will only be distributed after all those appointments are over, so it is impossible for any of the X people(assuming they arrived on time) to lose their vaccine.
  - HelloMcFly 6y ago
    You don't need to blindly trust that someone is acting in good faith, you need merely examine the evidence. If what counts as "evidence" is documented in advance this becomes all the easier. For instance, one simply needs documented evidence that 1) the right populations were clearly made aware of vaccine location and time, 2) communications went out to "in-scope" target audiences at least X hours before the doses expired, and 3) if vaccines are at threat of expiring once they are - let's say - two hours from expiring then those that control that particular supply should do everything they can to use them. And while this solution is a bit reductive, it's honestly not that reductive; this is a solvable problem. People on Hacker News solve much, much, much harder problems than this. And I'd rather 20% of vaccines go to the wrong people than 5% of vaccines go in the trashbin, personally.
civilized 6y ago
Dude. "This overall situation isn't ideal from my perspective" is really, REALLY not equivalent to "this particular person committed a crime". If it's night time and you have six hours to administer the doses, you have to administer them in six hours. To someone you can contact in six hours. At night. Your position just boils down to "I'd rather let people die than be open to a bureaucratic exception in a desperate emergency situation in the middle of a pandemic." It's monstrous, quite frankly. You should reconsider.
AbrahamParangi 6y ago
It would be better for 100 people to get the vaccine out of order than for 1 dose to be wasted. The leverage from removing people from the pool of potential spreaders is MASSIVE.

HelloMcFly 6y ago

If we can confidently confirm that 1) there are leftover vaccines, 2) good-faith efforts were made to administer them to the target audience, and 3) there were leftover vaccines that were definitely otherwise going to go to waste then I'm 100% fine with people administering to their contact list. I'd rather that 1000x over than unused vaccines be tossed into the garbage. We all lose with unused vaccines.

JoshTko 6y ago
It's just poor design to allow for good-faith. It's too easy for a bad actor to artificially create "leftover" doses to give to friends and family. Just don't allow doctor discretion and organize better for the next day, problem solved.
- NMDaniel 6y ago
  > It's too easy for a bad actor to artificially create "leftover" doses to give to friends and family How? If X people made appointments in a day, then exactly X vaccines should be distributed for that day. Leftover vaccines will only be distributed after all those appointments are over, so it is impossible for any of the X people(assuming they arrived on time) to lose their vaccine.
- HelloMcFly 6y ago
  You don't need to blindly trust that someone is acting in good faith, you need merely examine the evidence. If what counts as "evidence" is documented in advance this becomes all the easier. For instance, one simply needs documented evidence that 1) the right populations were clearly made aware of vaccine location and time, 2) communications went out to "in-scope" target audiences at least X hours before the doses expired, and 3) if vaccines are at threat of expiring once they are - let's say - two hours from expiring then those that control that particular supply should do everything they can to use them. And while this solution is a bit reductive, it's honestly not that reductive; this is a solvable problem. People on Hacker News solve much, much, much harder problems than this. And I'd rather 20% of vaccines go to the wrong people than 5% of vaccines go in the trashbin, personally.

civilized 6y ago

Dude. "This overall situation isn't ideal from my perspective" is really, REALLY not equivalent to "this particular person committed a crime". If it's night time and you have six hours to administer the doses, you have to administer them in six hours. To someone you can contact in six hours. At night. Your position just boils down to "I'd rather let people die than be open to a bureaucratic exception in a desperate emergency situation in the middle of a pandemic." It's monstrous, quite frankly. You should reconsider.

AbrahamParangi 6y ago

It would be better for 100 people to get the vaccine out of order than for 1 dose to be wasted. The leverage from removing people from the pool of potential spreaders is MASSIVE.