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As stupid as this sounds, this is extremely standard policy in many, many jobs. Just because something is expiring doesn't mean you can use it against the stand

As stupid as this sounds, this is extremely standard policy in many, many jobs. Just because something is expiring doesn't mean you can use it against the standing rules and procedures.

jMyles 6y ago
...it almost certainly makes sense to push back in those cases too, then.
La1n 6y ago
It could introduce corruption otherwise too, selling doses that are about to expire to the highest bidder. Which then could introduce incentive to let more doses "expire". I agree that in this case it seems stupid, but the rule is there for a reason.
- arcticfox 6y ago
  It says in the article that he was told to get the doses in arms by any method necessary. His method seemed entirely reasonable. A lot of this "it was policy" argument fails when Harris County failed to produce evidence of said policy and its instruction.
- jeromegv 6y ago
  You are focusing on a very unlikely scenario instead of focusing on the bigger picture, the more people get it, the better it is for everyone, regardless of anyone's status. The rule is there for a reason is a terrible reason to do something that harms our society.
- throwaway0a5e 6y ago
  Scale matters. The manager's pet getting first pick of the dumpster at a small machine shop is very different than the same thing at a ship yard.
learc83 6y ago
According to the doctor that was explicitly not the policy. His version is that the health department made it clear that they should do whatever they had to do to keep from wasting doses. This lines up with what I know from family members doing vaccinations in other areas.
arcticfox 6y ago
On the other hand, most standard jobs have documented procedures and managers that respond to questions about policy accurately. The NYT reporting turned up no such things. And seriously on the other hand, most jobs are not potentially life and death situations. There are few, if any parallel situations to this. Maybe it would be akin to parking a company vehicle incorrectly so you could stop and help an injured person.
SamBam 6y ago
> Dr. Gokal said the advice was to vaccinate people eligible under the 1(a) category then those under the 1(b) category. > After that, he said, the message was: “Just put it in people’s arms. We don’t want any doses to go to waste. Period.” It sounds like not wasting the limited vaccine was actual policy (possibly unofficial policy, but the message he was receiving). And this would be the right policy. It's absolutely correct to get vaccines into people before the expire, so long as you hav correctly exhausted all means available to you of finding the right people. The issue is that the states haven't made it easy for providers to find the right people when you have six hours remaining to use a vaccine.
- PartiallyTyped 6y ago
  Not only was he within policy, he was given permission, explicitly. > Dr. Gokal said he called a Harris County public health official in charge of operations to report his plans to find 10 people to receive the remaining doses. He said he was told, simply: OK.
david422 6y ago
You are being downvoted - but this is realistic. Restaurants trash or donate expiring food. Corporations shred perfectly good hardware instead of giving it away. Not saying it's good - but there are reasons these policies are in place. It can also result in the situations we see here which sounds like this doctor had the best of intentions and is being punished for it.
- tester34 6y ago
  There is difference between equipment like electronics or some shit (taking stuff that going to be destroyed) and... vaccines for deadly stuff that people NEED/MUST receive LOL
- learc83 6y ago
  Not only was there no such policy in place according to the article, but physicians are given wide latitude in making medical decisions (using drugs off label, using expired drugs etc...). If they act unethically, there is a built in method to address this through the licensing boards that regulate them. Criminal behavior is different, but the Judge that heard the case completely rejected the argument that the behavior was criminal.
- hannasanarion 6y ago
  They're being downvoted because they're wrong. >On Dec. 22, Dr. Gokal joined a conference call in which state health officials explained the protocols for administering the recently approved Moderna vaccine. The 10 or 11 doses in a vial are viable for six hours after the seal is punctured. >Dr. Gokal said the advice was to vaccinate people eligible under the 1(a) category (health care workers and residents in long-term-care facilities), then those under the 1(b) category (people over 65 or with a health condition that increases risk of severe Covid-related illness). >After that, he said, the message was: “Just put it in people’s arms. We don’t want any doses to go to waste. Period.” What he did was explicitly ordered by the government. It is what the health department told everybody to do, in no uncertain terms.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
x86_64Ubuntu 6y ago
Well, there were no rules and procedures, per the article. > a prosecutor told him by email that there were no written protocols from late December; nor had a written wait list yet been found. And giving short life vaccines to people with co-morbidities during a pandemic is a world of difference than grocery store food. I'm not sure why we're even comparing the two.
throwaway0a5e 6y ago
In most jobs (outside of the hyper-unionized, hyper-bigCo places that are policy, checkbox and butt-covering driven and internally function a lot like government) management will cover for these kind of actions even if they're not officially sanctioned by policy. Basically what you do outside of the rules is on you but if the outcome is good you don't get fired like this guy did.

As stupid as this sounds, this is extremely standard policy in many, many jobs. Just because something is expiring doesn't mean you can use it against the standing rules and procedures.

jMyles 6y ago

...it almost certainly makes sense to push back in those cases too, then.

La1n 6y ago

It could introduce corruption otherwise too, selling doses that are about to expire to the highest bidder. Which then could introduce incentive to let more doses "expire". I agree that in this case it seems stupid, but the rule is there for a reason.

arcticfox 6y ago
It says in the article that he was told to get the doses in arms by any method necessary. His method seemed entirely reasonable. A lot of this "it was policy" argument fails when Harris County failed to produce evidence of said policy and its instruction.
jeromegv 6y ago
You are focusing on a very unlikely scenario instead of focusing on the bigger picture, the more people get it, the better it is for everyone, regardless of anyone's status. The rule is there for a reason is a terrible reason to do something that harms our society.
throwaway0a5e 6y ago
Scale matters. The manager's pet getting first pick of the dumpster at a small machine shop is very different than the same thing at a ship yard.

learc83 6y ago

According to the doctor that was explicitly not the policy. His version is that the health department made it clear that they should do whatever they had to do to keep from wasting doses. This lines up with what I know from family members doing vaccinations in other areas.

arcticfox 6y ago

On the other hand, most standard jobs have documented procedures and managers that respond to questions about policy accurately. The NYT reporting turned up no such things. And seriously on the other hand, most jobs are not potentially life and death situations. There are few, if any parallel situations to this. Maybe it would be akin to parking a company vehicle incorrectly so you could stop and help an injured person.

SamBam 6y ago

> Dr. Gokal said the advice was to vaccinate people eligible under the 1(a) category then those under the 1(b) category. > After that, he said, the message was: “Just put it in people’s arms. We don’t want any doses to go to waste. Period.” It sounds like not wasting the limited vaccine was actual policy (possibly unofficial policy, but the message he was receiving). And this would be the right policy. It's absolutely correct to get vaccines into people before the expire, so long as you hav correctly exhausted all means available to you of finding the right people. The issue is that the states haven't made it easy for providers to find the right people when you have six hours remaining to use a vaccine.

PartiallyTyped 6y ago
Not only was he within policy, he was given permission, explicitly. > Dr. Gokal said he called a Harris County public health official in charge of operations to report his plans to find 10 people to receive the remaining doses. He said he was told, simply: OK.

david422 6y ago

You are being downvoted - but this is realistic. Restaurants trash or donate expiring food. Corporations shred perfectly good hardware instead of giving it away. Not saying it's good - but there are reasons these policies are in place. It can also result in the situations we see here which sounds like this doctor had the best of intentions and is being punished for it.

tester34 6y ago
There is difference between equipment like electronics or some shit (taking stuff that going to be destroyed) and... vaccines for deadly stuff that people NEED/MUST receive LOL
learc83 6y ago
Not only was there no such policy in place according to the article, but physicians are given wide latitude in making medical decisions (using drugs off label, using expired drugs etc...). If they act unethically, there is a built in method to address this through the licensing boards that regulate them. Criminal behavior is different, but the Judge that heard the case completely rejected the argument that the behavior was criminal.
hannasanarion 6y ago
They're being downvoted because they're wrong. >On Dec. 22, Dr. Gokal joined a conference call in which state health officials explained the protocols for administering the recently approved Moderna vaccine. The 10 or 11 doses in a vial are viable for six hours after the seal is punctured. >Dr. Gokal said the advice was to vaccinate people eligible under the 1(a) category (health care workers and residents in long-term-care facilities), then those under the 1(b) category (people over 65 or with a health condition that increases risk of severe Covid-related illness). >After that, he said, the message was: “Just put it in people’s arms. We don’t want any doses to go to waste. Period.” What he did was explicitly ordered by the government. It is what the health department told everybody to do, in no uncertain terms.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

x86_64Ubuntu 6y ago

Well, there were no rules and procedures, per the article. > a prosecutor told him by email that there were no written protocols from late December; nor had a written wait list yet been found. And giving short life vaccines to people with co-morbidities during a pandemic is a world of difference than grocery store food. I'm not sure why we're even comparing the two.

throwaway0a5e 6y ago

In most jobs (outside of the hyper-unionized, hyper-bigCo places that are policy, checkbox and butt-covering driven and internally function a lot like government) management will cover for these kind of actions even if they're not officially sanctioned by policy. Basically what you do outside of the rules is on you but if the outcome is good you don't get fired like this guy did.