5 ms·

not their ancestral land. Towards the end of the 19 century the ottomans specifically moved in a large number of arabs in order to thwart zionist aspirations. T

not their ancestral land. Towards the end of the 19 century the ottomans specifically moved in a large number of arabs in order to thwart zionist aspirations. The country of jordan was created to rehouse them. Also a forgotten point that more jews were displaced from arab countries then all the palestinian refugee. Don't see any jewish refugee crisis.

29athrowaway 6y ago
There was a crisis, around the year 135 AD. That still does not make the zionist claim legitimate.
- marshmallow_12 6y ago
  true. But then nor does a crisis around the year 1945. Still, given the option of vanishing into the earth or creating a country where you won't be murdered just for existing...
  - 29athrowaway 6y ago
    Let me repeat everything again: The Zionist organization was founded in 1897. Much before WW1 and WW2 happened. The Jewish diaspora had been already out of Eretz Israel for over 1700 years. Imagine a country like Italy, for some reason, stops existing. Then, 1700 years later, a group of Italian Americans form "The Italian Organization", based in the US, and then get organized to take over the Italian peninsula by force. That would be the same. Replacing the population of an existing country does not solve a problem, it trades one problem by another problem.
    - marshmallow_12 6y ago
      i don't agree with the zionist ideal at all. What i'm saying is after the holocaust there no longer existed the option of staying in Europe' necessitating the creation of a jewish state. As for the arab refugees, a similar number of jews were expelled from arab countries yet a united nations agency wasn't needed to deal with them. At the same, time these jews were exiled under pain of death. The palestinians chose on their own not to participate in the new state (these are 1 million israeli arabs). And up until the 18 century isral was largely a deserted wasteland. The land was made livable by early jewish pioneers.
      - 29athrowaway 6y ago
        At the time of the creation of the Zionist organization, there was no legitimate way in which the Zionist Jewish diaspora could have claimed sovereignty over the territory known as Eretz Yisrael, a territory that they had lost 1700 years prior. > after the holocaust there no longer existed the option of staying in Europe' Today, there are many Jews living in Europe today. The governments that persecuted Jews during World War II were defeated and ceased to exist. Today, antisemitism, hate speech and any hate related imagery is illegal and frowned upon pretty much everywhere. > necessitating the creation of a jewish state There are many Jews living in Europe, the US and Latin America. Therefore, that necessity is debatable. Also, many Jews are not Zionist. You can live outside Israel and be Jewish and enjoy a religious life, and most people won't have a problem about it. In fact, most people will find it cool. > As for the arab refugees, a similar number of jews were expelled from arab countries A sovereign country has sovereignty over their domestic policies, including immigration. If you disagree with the immigration policies of a sovereign country, you can try to address that through diplomatic means. > And up until the 18 century isral was largely a deserted wasteland. The land was made livable by early jewish pioneers. Doesn't matter. If my neighbor doesn't take care of their yard, it is not legitimate for me to annex my neighbors' yard. That is a common logical fallacy used to justify colonialism.
        marshmallow_12 6y ago
        >Today, there are many Jews living in Europe. I'm talking about in 1948 my friend. >The governments that persecuted Jews during World War II were defeated and ceased to exist. Today, antisemitism, hate speech and any hate related imagery is illegal and frowned upon pretty much everywhere. You are either naive or you have an agenda. Governments are purely a device to manifest the will of the people. Would you feel comfortable living in europe when the entire continent tried their best to kill you? >A sovereign country has sovereignty over their domestic policies, including immigration. Your ignorance is shocking. See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Jews_in_Syria https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Jews_in_Syria. But it proves my point. If a 2500 year old community are still considered immigrants then they must be citizens somewhere:) truth is there can't be a real argument based on precedent since there is none. My point, however, is given the tiny size of israel and the relative benignity of their crimes the obsessive focus on them to the point that UNRWA and UNHRC are distinct points to anti semitism.

29athrowaway 6y ago

There was a crisis, around the year 135 AD. That still does not make the zionist claim legitimate.

marshmallow_12 6y ago
true. But then nor does a crisis around the year 1945. Still, given the option of vanishing into the earth or creating a country where you won't be murdered just for existing...
- 29athrowaway 6y ago
  Let me repeat everything again: The Zionist organization was founded in 1897. Much before WW1 and WW2 happened. The Jewish diaspora had been already out of Eretz Israel for over 1700 years. Imagine a country like Italy, for some reason, stops existing. Then, 1700 years later, a group of Italian Americans form "The Italian Organization", based in the US, and then get organized to take over the Italian peninsula by force. That would be the same. Replacing the population of an existing country does not solve a problem, it trades one problem by another problem.
  - marshmallow_12 6y ago
    i don't agree with the zionist ideal at all. What i'm saying is after the holocaust there no longer existed the option of staying in Europe' necessitating the creation of a jewish state. As for the arab refugees, a similar number of jews were expelled from arab countries yet a united nations agency wasn't needed to deal with them. At the same, time these jews were exiled under pain of death. The palestinians chose on their own not to participate in the new state (these are 1 million israeli arabs). And up until the 18 century isral was largely a deserted wasteland. The land was made livable by early jewish pioneers.
    - 29athrowaway 6y ago
      At the time of the creation of the Zionist organization, there was no legitimate way in which the Zionist Jewish diaspora could have claimed sovereignty over the territory known as Eretz Yisrael, a territory that they had lost 1700 years prior. > after the holocaust there no longer existed the option of staying in Europe' Today, there are many Jews living in Europe today. The governments that persecuted Jews during World War II were defeated and ceased to exist. Today, antisemitism, hate speech and any hate related imagery is illegal and frowned upon pretty much everywhere. > necessitating the creation of a jewish state There are many Jews living in Europe, the US and Latin America. Therefore, that necessity is debatable. Also, many Jews are not Zionist. You can live outside Israel and be Jewish and enjoy a religious life, and most people won't have a problem about it. In fact, most people will find it cool. > As for the arab refugees, a similar number of jews were expelled from arab countries A sovereign country has sovereignty over their domestic policies, including immigration. If you disagree with the immigration policies of a sovereign country, you can try to address that through diplomatic means. > And up until the 18 century isral was largely a deserted wasteland. The land was made livable by early jewish pioneers. Doesn't matter. If my neighbor doesn't take care of their yard, it is not legitimate for me to annex my neighbors' yard. That is a common logical fallacy used to justify colonialism.
      - marshmallow_12 6y ago
        >Today, there are many Jews living in Europe. I'm talking about in 1948 my friend. >The governments that persecuted Jews during World War II were defeated and ceased to exist. Today, antisemitism, hate speech and any hate related imagery is illegal and frowned upon pretty much everywhere. You are either naive or you have an agenda. Governments are purely a device to manifest the will of the people. Would you feel comfortable living in europe when the entire continent tried their best to kill you? >A sovereign country has sovereignty over their domestic policies, including immigration. Your ignorance is shocking. See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Jews_in_Syria https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Jews_in_Syria. But it proves my point. If a 2500 year old community are still considered immigrants then they must be citizens somewhere:) truth is there can't be a real argument based on precedent since there is none. My point, however, is given the tiny size of israel and the relative benignity of their crimes the obsessive focus on them to the point that UNRWA and UNHRC are distinct points to anti semitism.