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What are these "fundamentals" you speak of? Why should I pay anything at all for a record of the fact that someone, sometime in the past solved a useless math

What are these "fundamentals" you speak of? Why should I pay anything at all for a record of the fact that someone, sometime in the past solved a useless math problem?

chordalkeyboard 6y ago
Scarcity. It’s ledger money. People want a unit of exchange that won’t depreciate as a result of the creation of new units. bitcoin meets that need.
- pmiller2 6y ago
  So what if it's scarce? Why should I be transacting using a record of someone's solution to a useless math problem to begin with? You haven't answered my question at all. As for it "not depreciating," I claim that's because people believe it should go up, i.e. BTC is worth something (meaning you can exchange it for USD at a favorable rate) because people say it should be -- by fiat of the speculation market rather than fiat by a central backing agency. If it were only worth something because it "didn't depreciate," it BTC rises would correlate strongly with inflation. Since there's been essentially no inflation since BTC has been created, that's obviously untrue. I would also take issue with the assertion that it is, in fact, scarce. Scarcity means nothing when you literally have something that is arbitrarily subdividable. PS, the USD is also "ledger money." Well over 90% of USD only exist as bits in a computer system. It's essentially the same as a private blockchain.
  - chordalkeyboard 6y ago
    > So what if it's scarce? So that allows it to be a medium of exchange with a stable number of outstanding units, which is an improvement over USD. > Why should I be transacting using a record of someone's solution to a useless math problem to begin with? People who want to transact don’t wonder why they need an exchange medium. > As for it "not depreciating," I claim that's because people believe it should go up, i.e. BTC is worth something (meaning you can exchange it for USD at a favorable rate) because people say it should be -- by fiat of the speculation market rather than fiat by a central backing agency. Why should anyone care about your opinion on btc? You don’t even seem to understand why a currency should be scarce (in the economic sense). > If it were only worth something because it "didn't depreciate," it BTC rises would correlate strongly with inflation. Since there's been essentially no inflation since BTC has been created, that's obviously untrue. Obviously, you’re mistaken about inflation. > I would also take issue with the assertion that it is, in fact, scarce. Scarcity means nothing when you literally have something that is arbitrarily subdividable. “Scarce” here refers to the economic sense of the word, not its common analogue. > PS, the USD is also "ledger money." Well over 90% of USD only exist as bits in a computer system. It's essentially the same as a private blockchain. This would be a good opportunity for you to reflect on why USD are decreasing in value while BTC are increasing.
    - Apocryphon 6y ago
      > Why should anyone care about your opinion on btc? You don’t even seem to understand why a currency should be scarce (in the economic sense). And why should anyone care about yours? You seem to be operating under the extreme naiveté of someone who believes that the massive presence of bandwagoning speculators, would-be manipulators like the Elon Musk/Winklevoss billionaire cheerleaders, Chinese miners buying massive amount of asics, various schemes such as Tether, are irrelevant to Bitcoin. A currency is subject to real world conditions and influence by real-world actors. It's not a system that can exist only perfectly in a vacuum. > This would be a good opportunity for you to reflect on why USD are decreasing in value while BTC are increasing. You can say the same of $TSLA, $GME, or any other meme of the moment. Why did BTC increase in value in 2018- until it didn't?
      - chordalkeyboard 6y ago
        > And why should anyone care about yours? No reason at all, thanks for the reply. > You seem to be operating under the extreme naiveté of someone who believes that the massive presence of bandwagoning speculators, would-be manipulators like the Elon Musk/Winklevoss billionaire cheerleaders, Chinese miners buying massive amount of asics, various schemes such as Tether, are irrelevant to Bitcoin. Not at all. > You can say the same of $TSLA, $GME, or any other meme of the moment. Why did BTC increase in value in 2018- until it didn't? Price != value.
    - pmiller2 6y ago
      I understand why there needs to be a limited amount of any currency unit. It's because currency is for conducting transactions involving resources which are also limited. What I don't understand is why you think scarcity implies any sort of value. You do understand that there are plenty of things that are scarce that are essentially worthless, right? As well, I'm not questioning the need for an exchange medium. I'm questioning why a certificate that says someone solved a useless math problem is a valid exchange mechanism. > Why should anyone care about your opinion on btc? Apparently you do, just not enough to be civil about it. If I had to speculate as to your motivation, I would say that it's because my point of view is dangerous to your interests. That is, if everyone thought the same as I did, BTC would be worth $0, just like I claimed in an earlier comment. You also claim I don't understand inflation, but don't care to explain it to me. Well, here it is: inflation is the result of too much money chasing too few things. That's it, nothing else. As I've mentioned, that's also the reason the price of BTC climbs relative to USD. More people want to buy BTC with USD than they did yesterday. It's as simple as that. What you don't seem to understand is that the value of a currency is relative to the things people want to buy with it. Let's illustrate the point with a hypothetical. Suppose a magical genie snaps their fingers and suddenly, everyone's USD bank balance gets multiplied by 10. What happens then? People still value the things they were buying with USD yesterday the same, so, prices will just go up by a factor of 10. You can call that the USD depreciating, or you can call it the price of goods increasing. Those things are equivalent. See, the whole problem with your argument is that BTC only has any value whatsoever with respect to USD and other currencies. With fairly limited exceptions, you can't buy things with BTC, so it's not exposed to the true value of things one would theoretically buy with it. One final question: do you take issue with my statement that the USD essentially is a blockchain-based digital currency? If so, how? If not, why bother with BTC? Oh, and you still haven't explained why BTC should be worth anything at all. I thought you were one of those "enthusiasts" who understood those things? Is there a reason you don't want to explain it to me so I can become an enthusiast as well?

What are these "fundamentals" you speak of? Why should I pay anything at all for a record of the fact that someone, sometime in the past solved a useless math problem?

chordalkeyboard 6y ago

Scarcity. It’s ledger money. People want a unit of exchange that won’t depreciate as a result of the creation of new units. bitcoin meets that need.

pmiller2 6y ago
So what if it's scarce? Why should I be transacting using a record of someone's solution to a useless math problem to begin with? You haven't answered my question at all. As for it "not depreciating," I claim that's because people believe it should go up, i.e. BTC is worth something (meaning you can exchange it for USD at a favorable rate) because people say it should be -- by fiat of the speculation market rather than fiat by a central backing agency. If it were only worth something because it "didn't depreciate," it BTC rises would correlate strongly with inflation. Since there's been essentially no inflation since BTC has been created, that's obviously untrue. I would also take issue with the assertion that it is, in fact, scarce. Scarcity means nothing when you literally have something that is arbitrarily subdividable. PS, the USD is also "ledger money." Well over 90% of USD only exist as bits in a computer system. It's essentially the same as a private blockchain.
- chordalkeyboard 6y ago
  > So what if it's scarce? So that allows it to be a medium of exchange with a stable number of outstanding units, which is an improvement over USD. > Why should I be transacting using a record of someone's solution to a useless math problem to begin with? People who want to transact don’t wonder why they need an exchange medium. > As for it "not depreciating," I claim that's because people believe it should go up, i.e. BTC is worth something (meaning you can exchange it for USD at a favorable rate) because people say it should be -- by fiat of the speculation market rather than fiat by a central backing agency. Why should anyone care about your opinion on btc? You don’t even seem to understand why a currency should be scarce (in the economic sense). > If it were only worth something because it "didn't depreciate," it BTC rises would correlate strongly with inflation. Since there's been essentially no inflation since BTC has been created, that's obviously untrue. Obviously, you’re mistaken about inflation. > I would also take issue with the assertion that it is, in fact, scarce. Scarcity means nothing when you literally have something that is arbitrarily subdividable. “Scarce” here refers to the economic sense of the word, not its common analogue. > PS, the USD is also "ledger money." Well over 90% of USD only exist as bits in a computer system. It's essentially the same as a private blockchain. This would be a good opportunity for you to reflect on why USD are decreasing in value while BTC are increasing.
  - Apocryphon 6y ago
    > Why should anyone care about your opinion on btc? You don’t even seem to understand why a currency should be scarce (in the economic sense). And why should anyone care about yours? You seem to be operating under the extreme naiveté of someone who believes that the massive presence of bandwagoning speculators, would-be manipulators like the Elon Musk/Winklevoss billionaire cheerleaders, Chinese miners buying massive amount of asics, various schemes such as Tether, are irrelevant to Bitcoin. A currency is subject to real world conditions and influence by real-world actors. It's not a system that can exist only perfectly in a vacuum. > This would be a good opportunity for you to reflect on why USD are decreasing in value while BTC are increasing. You can say the same of $TSLA, $GME, or any other meme of the moment. Why did BTC increase in value in 2018- until it didn't?
    - chordalkeyboard 6y ago
      > And why should anyone care about yours? No reason at all, thanks for the reply. > You seem to be operating under the extreme naiveté of someone who believes that the massive presence of bandwagoning speculators, would-be manipulators like the Elon Musk/Winklevoss billionaire cheerleaders, Chinese miners buying massive amount of asics, various schemes such as Tether, are irrelevant to Bitcoin. Not at all. > You can say the same of $TSLA, $GME, or any other meme of the moment. Why did BTC increase in value in 2018- until it didn't? Price != value.
  - pmiller2 6y ago
    I understand why there needs to be a limited amount of any currency unit. It's because currency is for conducting transactions involving resources which are also limited. What I don't understand is why you think scarcity implies any sort of value. You do understand that there are plenty of things that are scarce that are essentially worthless, right? As well, I'm not questioning the need for an exchange medium. I'm questioning why a certificate that says someone solved a useless math problem is a valid exchange mechanism. > Why should anyone care about your opinion on btc? Apparently you do, just not enough to be civil about it. If I had to speculate as to your motivation, I would say that it's because my point of view is dangerous to your interests. That is, if everyone thought the same as I did, BTC would be worth $0, just like I claimed in an earlier comment. You also claim I don't understand inflation, but don't care to explain it to me. Well, here it is: inflation is the result of too much money chasing too few things. That's it, nothing else. As I've mentioned, that's also the reason the price of BTC climbs relative to USD. More people want to buy BTC with USD than they did yesterday. It's as simple as that. What you don't seem to understand is that the value of a currency is relative to the things people want to buy with it. Let's illustrate the point with a hypothetical. Suppose a magical genie snaps their fingers and suddenly, everyone's USD bank balance gets multiplied by 10. What happens then? People still value the things they were buying with USD yesterday the same, so, prices will just go up by a factor of 10. You can call that the USD depreciating, or you can call it the price of goods increasing. Those things are equivalent. See, the whole problem with your argument is that BTC only has any value whatsoever with respect to USD and other currencies. With fairly limited exceptions, you can't buy things with BTC, so it's not exposed to the true value of things one would theoretically buy with it. One final question: do you take issue with my statement that the USD essentially is a blockchain-based digital currency? If so, how? If not, why bother with BTC? Oh, and you still haven't explained why BTC should be worth anything at all. I thought you were one of those "enthusiasts" who understood those things? Is there a reason you don't want to explain it to me so I can become an enthusiast as well?