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Linux/BSD desktop UI is not the thing holding me back from switching from macOS! There are two things: - All the keybindings are wrong. - The mouse sensitivit

by jez 6y ago

Linux/BSD desktop UI is not the thing holding me back from switching from macOS! There are two things: - All the keybindings are wrong. - The mouse sensitivity is terrible. Maybe this is a hot take but I actually think most Linux/BSD UIs are fine! Pop!_OS looks great, is easy to get working, doesn't involve me tweaking random config files, hardly every breaks from an update, works with my graphics card, etc. Instead: - Linux/BSD UIs use the Control and Shift modifiers most heavily, instead of Command and Option. I should be able to use one keybinding everywhere to copy, without having to switch to Ctrl-Shift-C to copy in a terminal, where Ctrl-C is an interrupt. macOS lets me hijack any menu item globally on the operating system to assign a custom keybinding. - It is more or less impossible to make the mouse sensitivity feel like macOS (it's either way too slow or way to fast, and it seems as though the settings don't exist to change recreate the macOS acceleration curves).

yagya 6y ago
Yeah, I like the idea of having a Meta/Command key for common GUI shortcuts, rather than reassigning Control key shortcuts like Windows does.
- grahamjperrin 6y ago
  > … reassigning Control key shortcuts like Windows does. Do you think of Control-C for copy as a reassignment? It's a norm in various desktop environments. KDE Plasma 5 here, for example.
bscphil 6y ago
By "the keybindings are wrong", you mean that the keybindings aren't what you want / what you're used to. Plenty of people prefer the keybindings this way. > It is more or less impossible to make the mouse sensitivity feel like macOS (it's either way too slow or way to fast Replying because of this - are you using libinput instead of the synaptics driver? Libinput is really a very big downgrade, and hardly has any configurability. I would be very surprised if you were unable to tweak Synaptics to meet your needs. I find my touchpad far smoother and easier to work with than any Apple touchpad I've ever tried. For reference, here are the settings for pointer motion alone that are exposed with the Synaptics driver in KDE. https://i.imgur.com/W0dDs2j.png https://i.imgur.com/W0dDs2j.png
- noobquestion81 6y ago
  Who actually wants two separate (app-specific!) key bindings for “copy”, which is meant to be a system-wide action? Thats terribly silly and immediately leads to you accidentally killing programs in your terminal. A very silly design choice IMO.
  - bscphil 6y ago
    My comment is in response to > Linux/BSD UIs use the Control and Shift modifiers most heavily, instead of Command and Option. I don't think I would have a severe objection to reversing terminal shortcuts (i.e. use Ctrl-c to copy, Ctrl-Shift-c to kill). But really, these are dev tools and I don't think the alternative shortcuts are that hard to get used to. On Linux it just becomes second nature that in the terminal the normal shortcuts are all prefixed with 'Shift', because there are a bunch of more useful shortcuts directly under the normal keys. Edit: incidentally you can change this on Linux. It's configurable. I suppose not many people seem to want to, which is maybe its own response to your question. See this thread for example: https://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/linux-software-2/change-bash-shortcut-keys-such-as-ctrl-c-818170/ https://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/linux-software-2/ch...
    - noobquestion81 6y ago
      I dont think the OP’s original point was primarily that the defaults are terrible, in any case. Its that the management of keybindings is godawful. The configuration fix you linked makes this point precisely. In order to have consistency in a basic systemwide function like “copy” you have to dig through forums or bust out your terminal emulator’s man page.
      - bscphil 6y ago
        The OP said "All the keybindings are wrong", so I responded with the assumption that they intended to complain about the keybindings (e.g. the use of Ctrl instead of Cmd). If we assume otherwise, all bets are off. In any case, I think you're assuming too much about how intuitive the system you've grown accustomed to is to other people. I accidentally kill programs in the terminal when I use macOS, because I can't keep the Cmd and Ctrl shortcuts separate in my head. Is that Apple's fault, or is it just something I'm not used to? IMO, desktop UI designers would like to have three things. The issue is that they're mutually incompatible. 1. Continuity with the ancient tradition of having Ctrl-c send a cancel/abort (or SIGINT) signal. 2. Having the common operation of copying some text mapped to [modifier]-c. 3. Having the most common modifier key be the key in the bottom left corner of the keyboard, which is Ctrl on most PC keyboards. You can't have all three at once in the same application. macOS solves this problem by abandoning 3, and using Cmd-c to copy text. Most Linux / Unix distributions solve this by partially abandoning 2, by prefixing the shortcut with an additional modifier in terminal applications so that the normal shortcut can continue to be used elsewhere. In my opinion they're both valid approaches. Personally I detest having to grope to find the Cmd key and remap my modifiers using Karabiner on macOS.
macksd 6y ago
Have you tried KDE? One of the reasons I like it is it's ability to remap every keybinding to what makes sense to you.
- im_down_w_otp 6y ago
  I've tried and failed to make this work. Its keybinding maps only apply to parts of the KDE she'll itself and the applications distributed along side a given release of KDE that all share the same keybinding remapping infrastructure. Chrome's keybindings don't change. Firefox's don't change. LibreOffice's don't change. Slack's don't change, etc. etc. The end result is a nightmare of even more mishmashed mixes of keybindings depending on whatever window you happen to be in. I've just given up. The only thing I've found to work at all well is to just swap the position of Ctrl and Super, then go through all the KDE shortcuts for stuff like "Take Screenshot", and make them be similar to a Mac, but like "Ctrl + Shift + 3" instead. Then just deal with the annoyance of how weird it is to use my terminal. It's better than the annoyance of every single other thing being a mess. If I could figure out how to remap all the control signals in my terminal to be like Super+c instead of Ctrl+c, then I'd be in good shape.
  - macksd 6y ago
    Ah okay. I care mostly about Window Management shortcuts, and that Alt + opens the drop-down menus. I find most other shortcuts I use are application specific or what I thought were global conventions. KDE does have a section called "standard shortcuts" where you can set shortcuts to open up "About" dialogs and several dozen other common actions - but for all I know it's then up to applications to plug into that? I suppose not a lot of developers targeting KDE for the experience...

by jez 6y ago

yagya 6y ago

Yeah, I like the idea of having a Meta/Command key for common GUI shortcuts, rather than reassigning Control key shortcuts like Windows does.

grahamjperrin 6y ago
> … reassigning Control key shortcuts like Windows does. Do you think of Control-C for copy as a reassignment? It's a norm in various desktop environments. KDE Plasma 5 here, for example.

bscphil 6y ago

By "the keybindings are wrong", you mean that the keybindings aren't what you want / what you're used to. Plenty of people prefer the keybindings this way. > It is more or less impossible to make the mouse sensitivity feel like macOS (it's either way too slow or way to fast Replying because of this - are you using libinput instead of the synaptics driver? Libinput is really a very big downgrade, and hardly has any configurability. I would be very surprised if you were unable to tweak Synaptics to meet your needs. I find my touchpad far smoother and easier to work with than any Apple touchpad I've ever tried. For reference, here are the settings for pointer motion alone that are exposed with the Synaptics driver in KDE. https://i.imgur.com/W0dDs2j.png https://i.imgur.com/W0dDs2j.png

noobquestion81 6y ago
Who actually wants two separate (app-specific!) key bindings for “copy”, which is meant to be a system-wide action? Thats terribly silly and immediately leads to you accidentally killing programs in your terminal. A very silly design choice IMO.
- bscphil 6y ago
  My comment is in response to > Linux/BSD UIs use the Control and Shift modifiers most heavily, instead of Command and Option. I don't think I would have a severe objection to reversing terminal shortcuts (i.e. use Ctrl-c to copy, Ctrl-Shift-c to kill). But really, these are dev tools and I don't think the alternative shortcuts are that hard to get used to. On Linux it just becomes second nature that in the terminal the normal shortcuts are all prefixed with 'Shift', because there are a bunch of more useful shortcuts directly under the normal keys. Edit: incidentally you can change this on Linux. It's configurable. I suppose not many people seem to want to, which is maybe its own response to your question. See this thread for example: https://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/linux-software-2/change-bash-shortcut-keys-such-as-ctrl-c-818170/ https://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/linux-software-2/ch...
  - noobquestion81 6y ago
    I dont think the OP’s original point was primarily that the defaults are terrible, in any case. Its that the management of keybindings is godawful. The configuration fix you linked makes this point precisely. In order to have consistency in a basic systemwide function like “copy” you have to dig through forums or bust out your terminal emulator’s man page.
    - bscphil 6y ago
      The OP said "All the keybindings are wrong", so I responded with the assumption that they intended to complain about the keybindings (e.g. the use of Ctrl instead of Cmd). If we assume otherwise, all bets are off. In any case, I think you're assuming too much about how intuitive the system you've grown accustomed to is to other people. I accidentally kill programs in the terminal when I use macOS, because I can't keep the Cmd and Ctrl shortcuts separate in my head. Is that Apple's fault, or is it just something I'm not used to? IMO, desktop UI designers would like to have three things. The issue is that they're mutually incompatible. 1. Continuity with the ancient tradition of having Ctrl-c send a cancel/abort (or SIGINT) signal. 2. Having the common operation of copying some text mapped to [modifier]-c. 3. Having the most common modifier key be the key in the bottom left corner of the keyboard, which is Ctrl on most PC keyboards. You can't have all three at once in the same application. macOS solves this problem by abandoning 3, and using Cmd-c to copy text. Most Linux / Unix distributions solve this by partially abandoning 2, by prefixing the shortcut with an additional modifier in terminal applications so that the normal shortcut can continue to be used elsewhere. In my opinion they're both valid approaches. Personally I detest having to grope to find the Cmd key and remap my modifiers using Karabiner on macOS.

macksd 6y ago

Have you tried KDE? One of the reasons I like it is it's ability to remap every keybinding to what makes sense to you.

im_down_w_otp 6y ago
I've tried and failed to make this work. Its keybinding maps only apply to parts of the KDE she'll itself and the applications distributed along side a given release of KDE that all share the same keybinding remapping infrastructure. Chrome's keybindings don't change. Firefox's don't change. LibreOffice's don't change. Slack's don't change, etc. etc. The end result is a nightmare of even more mishmashed mixes of keybindings depending on whatever window you happen to be in. I've just given up. The only thing I've found to work at all well is to just swap the position of Ctrl and Super, then go through all the KDE shortcuts for stuff like "Take Screenshot", and make them be similar to a Mac, but like "Ctrl + Shift + 3" instead. Then just deal with the annoyance of how weird it is to use my terminal. It's better than the annoyance of every single other thing being a mess. If I could figure out how to remap all the control signals in my terminal to be like Super+c instead of Ctrl+c, then I'd be in good shape.
- macksd 6y ago
  Ah okay. I care mostly about Window Management shortcuts, and that Alt + opens the drop-down menus. I find most other shortcuts I use are application specific or what I thought were global conventions. KDE does have a section called "standard shortcuts" where you can set shortcuts to open up "About" dialogs and several dozen other common actions - but for all I know it's then up to applications to plug into that? I suppose not a lot of developers targeting KDE for the experience...