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That's not how Bitcoin scales. The amount of transactions doesn't matter. Bitcoin can have a limited number of on-chain settlement transactions and unlimited nu

by Geee 6y ago

That's not how Bitcoin scales. The amount of transactions doesn't matter. Bitcoin can have a limited number of on-chain settlement transactions and unlimited number of off-chain payment transactions (Lightning, Paypal, Visa, etc.) and it doesn't consume a single bit of more energy. Energy consumption is proportional to its value and the current block reward.

arcticbull 6y ago
That's not what I am arguing as it's not what Nic is arguing. Nic doesn't say that Bitcoin consumes less power than you think on a per-transaction basis. He says that Visa consumes way, way more if you price in nebulous externalities. I am rejecting his thesis by saying that if Visa used as much power per transaction as Bitcoin we'd need to generate 3X as much power as we currently do. The quote is: "Any energy comparison must take the above into account – including the externalities from the extraction of oil, which implicitly backs the dollar." I'm taking it into account. And I'm saying he's wrong.
- Geee 6y ago
  Per-transaction basis is completely meaningless math. Both systems can be scaled as I said. The point is that it's more expensive to run the US dollar system than Bitcoin.
  - arcticbull 6y ago
    Well ok do you have any basis for that or is that speculation?
  - ashtonkem 6y ago
    Per-transactions costs matter a lot, you can’t just hand wave that away if you’re hoping to actually persuade anyone. As far as scaling Bitcoin goes: prove it. It’s been a decade and it still does 4tps.
    - Geee 6y ago
      https://www.binance.com/en/cards https://www.binance.com/en/cards
      - ashtonkem 6y ago
        Pointing to a Visa card to solve crypto scaling is probably not the argument I’d go for.
        Geee 6y ago
        That's exactly how the Bitcoin's payment layer scales. Visa is just one solution, but that's probably the most popular one. The settlement layer doesn't have to scale, because it's possible to scale the payment layer. You get all the benefits of sound money with the usability of fiat money.
        ashtonkem 6y ago
        It scales by using the system that Bitcoin was supposed to replace? Again, that’s not an argument for Bitcoin, just so we’re clear. This is an argument for visa instead.
        spurgu 6y ago
        Eh, that was an example that everyone can grasp. A more inline alternative would be Lightning Network.
        Geee 6y ago
        No, Visa is a payment network that works with any currency. Bitcoin replaces the US dollar, not Visa.
    - uh-quan 6y ago
      >As far as scaling Bitcoin goes: prove it. It’s been a decade and it still does 4tps. Sure. The Lightning Network already exists, is working and in use, and can in principle do essentially unlimited TPS. Bitcoin doesn't need to scale to millions of TPS to be successful (since payments and microtransactions aren't its only use case), but it so happens that it can do that through second layer technologies.
  - panarky 6y ago
    Per-transaction is only meaningful if you believe Bitcoin's only utility is by competing with Visa for everyday transactions like buying a cup of coffee. But if you find that Bitcoin is a digital, permissionless, borderless, uncensorable store of value, a better gold than gold, then it doesn't need millions of transactions per second. Bitcoin is just fine as the most secure settlement layer and long-term store of value for large, infrequent and expensive transactions. Fiat money isn't going anywhere, Visa doesn't need to be replaced, and Bitcoin doesn't need to pay for your coffee to be useful. It can do what it does best, coexisting with fiat systems and other cryptocurrencies.
    - arcticbull 6y ago
      > Bitcoin is just fine as the most secure settlement layer and long-term store of value for large, infrequent and expensive transactions. It's not, because its inability to scale means folks are pushed onto L2 which has none of the guarantees you mention.
      - panarky 6y ago
        If I buy real estate or fine art to defend against the money printer, my transactions are large, infrequent, slow and expensive. As Bitcoin's use as a store of value increases and transaction throughput remains constant, transactions will be larger, less frequent and more expensive. I won't get pushed out onto L2 just like I'm not pushed to liquidate real estate or art collections. I don't transact in long-term stores of value more than once every few years, and then I expect the transaction will be large, slow and expensive.
      - Geee 6y ago
        These guarantees aren't needed for most daily transactions. Using Visa with Bitcoin is fine, and does not undermine the security of the currency.
        arcticbull 6y ago
        Your absolute right, those guarantees are not needed in most circumstances, which is why bitcoin is irrelevant.
- shawnz 6y ago
  > Nic doesn't say that Bitcoin consumes less power than you think on a per-transaction basis. Sure he does: > Second, metrics like the “per-transaction energy cost” are misleading because transactions themselves do not cost energy; nor does bitcoin’s CO2 footprint scale with transactional count. The point is that transactions per second isn't the unit of value by which Bitcoin is priced. Bitcoin is not competing with other monetary systems simply on the basis of transactions per second, but also network trustworthiness/security
  - arcticbull 6y ago
    You stopped reading half way through my sentence. He’s not disputing Bitcoin energy usage he’s disputing visa. That’s what I wrote.
    - shawnz 6y ago
      I did read it but I cut out the irrelevant part. He's not disputing the per-transaction cost of Bitcoin OR Visa, and is explicitly pointing out how looking at it on a per-transaction basis is misleading. He is disputing the overall total network costs, not considered on a per-transaction basis but in terms of the total value provided by the network to all its users. Transactions per second is just one of the factors that could add value to a monetary system, but it isn't the only one.
      - arcticbull 6y ago
        I think you’re being intentionally disingenuous like Nic, but at least he was clear: “ Any energy comparison must take the above into account – including the externalities from the extraction of oil, which implicitly backs the dollar.” I factored it in with my calculus and you and nic are wrong. If you believe otherwise please show your work like I did not gut feelings. TPS is a means to an end re disproving the thesis not a talking point about utility. I am not looking at value in terms of TPS. TPS an intermediate step in my calculation. I am looking at total system usage. Sorry bud, your system is the digital equivalent of rolling coal and no amount of mental gymnastics will change that. But by all means show your work and let’s talk about it, don’t just say “nope try again” haha that’s what people who have no leg to stand on do.
Permit 6y ago
How many transactions/day is Lightning handling? I recall this same discussion in late 2017. Have they managed to successfully get people using it yet?
- arcticbull 6y ago
  Roughly zero, and no. [1] [1] https://bitcoinvisuals.com/lightning https://bitcoinvisuals.com/lightning
  - 3np 6y ago
    There is no number there on the number of transactions, simply because it’s impossible to measure. It’s only possible to see the lightning transactions flowing through your own node. Each channel accommodates theoretically infinite amount of transaction.
    - ashtonkem 6y ago
      More knowable question: who actually uses the lightning network to accept payment for goods and services?
      - anonisko 6y ago
        https://foldapp.com/ https://foldapp.com/ https://store.blockstream.com/ https://store.blockstream.com/ https://acceptlightning.com/list.html https://acceptlightning.com/list.html Several major exchanges have announced that they are implementing LN support. Still very early days.
        ashtonkem 6y ago
        Looking at that list, most of those are clearly crypto enthusiasts. I don't think "HODL Monkey" is a good indicator of where the market is going; ditto with exchanges. As always, call me when I can buy a latte with it.

by Geee 6y ago

arcticbull 6y ago

That's not what I am arguing as it's not what Nic is arguing. Nic doesn't say that Bitcoin consumes less power than you think on a per-transaction basis. He says that Visa consumes way, way more if you price in nebulous externalities. I am rejecting his thesis by saying that if Visa used as much power per transaction as Bitcoin we'd need to generate 3X as much power as we currently do. The quote is: "Any energy comparison must take the above into account – including the externalities from the extraction of oil, which implicitly backs the dollar." I'm taking it into account. And I'm saying he's wrong.

Geee 6y ago
Per-transaction basis is completely meaningless math. Both systems can be scaled as I said. The point is that it's more expensive to run the US dollar system than Bitcoin.
- arcticbull 6y ago
  Well ok do you have any basis for that or is that speculation?
- ashtonkem 6y ago
  Per-transactions costs matter a lot, you can’t just hand wave that away if you’re hoping to actually persuade anyone. As far as scaling Bitcoin goes: prove it. It’s been a decade and it still does 4tps.
  - Geee 6y ago
    https://www.binance.com/en/cards https://www.binance.com/en/cards
    - ashtonkem 6y ago
      Pointing to a Visa card to solve crypto scaling is probably not the argument I’d go for.
      - Geee 6y ago
        That's exactly how the Bitcoin's payment layer scales. Visa is just one solution, but that's probably the most popular one. The settlement layer doesn't have to scale, because it's possible to scale the payment layer. You get all the benefits of sound money with the usability of fiat money.
        ashtonkem 6y ago
        It scales by using the system that Bitcoin was supposed to replace? Again, that’s not an argument for Bitcoin, just so we’re clear. This is an argument for visa instead.
        spurgu 6y ago
        Eh, that was an example that everyone can grasp. A more inline alternative would be Lightning Network.
        Geee 6y ago
        No, Visa is a payment network that works with any currency. Bitcoin replaces the US dollar, not Visa.
  - uh-quan 6y ago
    >As far as scaling Bitcoin goes: prove it. It’s been a decade and it still does 4tps. Sure. The Lightning Network already exists, is working and in use, and can in principle do essentially unlimited TPS. Bitcoin doesn't need to scale to millions of TPS to be successful (since payments and microtransactions aren't its only use case), but it so happens that it can do that through second layer technologies.
- panarky 6y ago
  Per-transaction is only meaningful if you believe Bitcoin's only utility is by competing with Visa for everyday transactions like buying a cup of coffee. But if you find that Bitcoin is a digital, permissionless, borderless, uncensorable store of value, a better gold than gold, then it doesn't need millions of transactions per second. Bitcoin is just fine as the most secure settlement layer and long-term store of value for large, infrequent and expensive transactions. Fiat money isn't going anywhere, Visa doesn't need to be replaced, and Bitcoin doesn't need to pay for your coffee to be useful. It can do what it does best, coexisting with fiat systems and other cryptocurrencies.
  - arcticbull 6y ago
    > Bitcoin is just fine as the most secure settlement layer and long-term store of value for large, infrequent and expensive transactions. It's not, because its inability to scale means folks are pushed onto L2 which has none of the guarantees you mention.
    - panarky 6y ago
      If I buy real estate or fine art to defend against the money printer, my transactions are large, infrequent, slow and expensive. As Bitcoin's use as a store of value increases and transaction throughput remains constant, transactions will be larger, less frequent and more expensive. I won't get pushed out onto L2 just like I'm not pushed to liquidate real estate or art collections. I don't transact in long-term stores of value more than once every few years, and then I expect the transaction will be large, slow and expensive.
    - Geee 6y ago
      These guarantees aren't needed for most daily transactions. Using Visa with Bitcoin is fine, and does not undermine the security of the currency.
      - arcticbull 6y ago
        Your absolute right, those guarantees are not needed in most circumstances, which is why bitcoin is irrelevant.
shawnz 6y ago
> Nic doesn't say that Bitcoin consumes less power than you think on a per-transaction basis. Sure he does: > Second, metrics like the “per-transaction energy cost” are misleading because transactions themselves do not cost energy; nor does bitcoin’s CO2 footprint scale with transactional count. The point is that transactions per second isn't the unit of value by which Bitcoin is priced. Bitcoin is not competing with other monetary systems simply on the basis of transactions per second, but also network trustworthiness/security
- arcticbull 6y ago
  You stopped reading half way through my sentence. He’s not disputing Bitcoin energy usage he’s disputing visa. That’s what I wrote.
  - shawnz 6y ago
    I did read it but I cut out the irrelevant part. He's not disputing the per-transaction cost of Bitcoin OR Visa, and is explicitly pointing out how looking at it on a per-transaction basis is misleading. He is disputing the overall total network costs, not considered on a per-transaction basis but in terms of the total value provided by the network to all its users. Transactions per second is just one of the factors that could add value to a monetary system, but it isn't the only one.
    - arcticbull 6y ago
      I think you’re being intentionally disingenuous like Nic, but at least he was clear: “ Any energy comparison must take the above into account – including the externalities from the extraction of oil, which implicitly backs the dollar.” I factored it in with my calculus and you and nic are wrong. If you believe otherwise please show your work like I did not gut feelings. TPS is a means to an end re disproving the thesis not a talking point about utility. I am not looking at value in terms of TPS. TPS an intermediate step in my calculation. I am looking at total system usage. Sorry bud, your system is the digital equivalent of rolling coal and no amount of mental gymnastics will change that. But by all means show your work and let’s talk about it, don’t just say “nope try again” haha that’s what people who have no leg to stand on do.

Permit 6y ago

How many transactions/day is Lightning handling? I recall this same discussion in late 2017. Have they managed to successfully get people using it yet?

arcticbull 6y ago
Roughly zero, and no. [1] [1] https://bitcoinvisuals.com/lightning https://bitcoinvisuals.com/lightning
- 3np 6y ago
  There is no number there on the number of transactions, simply because it’s impossible to measure. It’s only possible to see the lightning transactions flowing through your own node. Each channel accommodates theoretically infinite amount of transaction.
  - ashtonkem 6y ago
    More knowable question: who actually uses the lightning network to accept payment for goods and services?
    - anonisko 6y ago
      https://foldapp.com/ https://foldapp.com/ https://store.blockstream.com/ https://store.blockstream.com/ https://acceptlightning.com/list.html https://acceptlightning.com/list.html Several major exchanges have announced that they are implementing LN support. Still very early days.
      - ashtonkem 6y ago
        Looking at that list, most of those are clearly crypto enthusiasts. I don't think "HODL Monkey" is a good indicator of where the market is going; ditto with exchanges. As always, call me when I can buy a latte with it.