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You are referring to events from the 20th century, but the Zionist movement starts in the late 19th century. By the time the first World Zionist Congress was h
by 29athrowaway 6y ago
You are referring to events from the 20th century, but the Zionist movement starts in the late 19th century.
By the time the first World Zionist Congress was held in Switzerland, 1897: there was no Jewish sovereign state, and neither WW1 or WW2 had happened yet, or any of the tragedies and horrors of the 20th century that affected the Jewish people (along with other minorities).
Zionists were mainly European Jewish diaspora. They were born and raised in Europe, and they had political representation through their respective governments in Europe. Zionists did not have a legitimate claim to the ancestral territory known as Eretz Yisrael, a territory that their ancestors had lost control over 1700 years prior. The modern claim to Eretz Yisrael arises from the Jewish faith.
The Jewish diaspora (and every human on Earth) have the right to be treated with dignity and respect, to have a peaceful life, free of discrimination and hate. But that freedom does not equate the freedom to take those same rights from the non-Jewish inhabitants of their ancestral land.
- marshmallow_12 6y agonot their ancestral land. Towards the end of the 19 century the ottomans specifically moved in a large number of arabs in order to thwart zionist aspirations. The country of jordan was created to rehouse them. Also a forgotten point that more jews were displaced from arab countries then all the palestinian refugee. Don't see any jewish refugee crisis.
- 29athrowaway 6y agoThere was a crisis, around the year 135 AD. That still does not make the zionist claim legitimate.
- marshmallow_12 6y agotrue. But then nor does a crisis around the year 1945. Still, given the option of vanishing into the earth or creating a country where you won't be murdered just for existing...
- 29athrowaway 6y agoLet me repeat everything again: The Zionist organization was founded in 1897. Much before WW1 and WW2 happened. The Jewish diaspora had been already out of Eretz Israel for over 1700 years. Imagine a country like Italy, for some reason, stops existing. Then, 1700 years later, a group of Italian Americans form "The Italian Organization", based in the US, and then get organized to take over the Italian peninsula by force. That would be the same. Replacing the population of an existing country does not solve a problem, it trades one problem by another problem.
- marshmallow_12 6y agoi don't agree with the zionist ideal at all. What i'm saying is after the holocaust there no longer existed the option of staying in Europe' necessitating the creation of a jewish state. As for the arab refugees, a similar number of jews were expelled from arab countries yet a united nations agency wasn't needed to deal with them. At the same, time these jews were exiled under pain of death. The palestinians chose on their own not to participate in the new state (these are 1 million israeli arabs). And up until the 18 century isral was largely a deserted wasteland. The land was made livable by early jewish pioneers.
- 29athrowaway 6y agoAt the time of the creation of the Zionist organization, there was no legitimate way in which the Zionist Jewish diaspora could have claimed sovereignty over the territory known as Eretz Yisrael, a territory that they had lost 1700 years prior. > after the holocaust there no longer existed the option of staying in Europe' Today, there are many Jews living in Europe today. The governments that persecuted Jews during World War II were defeated and ceased to exist. Today, antisemitism, hate speech and any hate related imagery is illegal and frowned upon pretty much everywhere. > necessitating the creation of a jewish state There are many Jews living in Europe, the US and Latin America. Therefore, that necessity is debatable. Also, many Jews are not Zionist. You can live outside Israel and be Jewish and enjoy a religious life, and most people won't have a problem about it. In fact, most people will find it cool. > As for the arab refugees, a similar number of jews were expelled from arab countries A sovereign country has sovereignty over their domestic policies, including immigration. If you disagree with the immigration policies of a sovereign country, you can try to address that through diplomatic means. > And up until the 18 century isral was largely a deserted wasteland. The land was made livable by early jewish pioneers. Doesn't matter. If my neighbor doesn't take care of their yard, it is not legitimate for me to annex my neighbors' yard. That is a common logical fallacy used to justify colonialism.