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> I don't particularly feel that any of those characteristics are very important, and I think most people would agree. Bitcoin doesn't care what you feel. It e

by noch 6y ago

> I don't particularly feel that any of those characteristics are very important, and I think most people would agree. Bitcoin doesn't care what you feel. It exists as an engineering artifact, continues to exist and functions to serve the needs of those who use it. Those who use it don't pay for it with their feelings but with their hard earned money. You evaluate a piece of engineering for what it aims to achieves not what you feel it should achieve. Bitcoin at block height 670061 has a market cap >USD800B. That's a lot of people who feel the characteristics of Bitcoin are valuable. Cf. A statement like: "I don't particularly feel HD screens on a phone are important and I think most people would agree that they're a waste and bad for the environment. Therefore HD screens shouldn't be in smart phones." > if you want to measure the efficiency of electric cars vs combustion engine ones you look at things like miles/Wh or CO2 emissions/mile. > You DON'T look at explosions per second or something like that. It might explain how combustion engines work but it is not the goal of a car. Again, Dan Held said: "the efficiency of Bitcoin’s PoW, should be defined in terms of the security of an economic history."[0] That history is perhaps analogous to the entire lifetime travel distance of the vehicle. Let a coin be a vehicle. There are 21M coins. Let a block be a mile long and infinitely wide (for transactions of any value can be contained in a block without limit to the value), for instance, and you can get your miles/Wh. Or just humbly study the Bitcoin timechain and understand what it does and why it does it. [0]: https://danhedl.medium.com/pow-is-efficient-aa3d442754d3 https://danhedl.medium.com/pow-is-efficient-aa3d442754d3

Grustaf 6y ago
Excellent analogy. No government would allow a car where the gas mileage decreased proportionally to how far you’ve driven since the car was made. That would be a very silly way to waste fuel.
- noch 6y ago
  > a car where the gas mileage decreased proportionally to how far you’ve driven since the car was made. Torturing metaphors: it's more useful to say that the gas/mile (kw per block) fuels all 21 million cars simultaneously, not just one car, and ensures that all the roads they've travelled remain useable, and that anyone in the world can use a car at any time and verify the journey it made and the cargo it carried. Further, each car can carry an arbitrary amount of cargo (the value of the transaction).
  - Grustaf 6y ago
    That wouldn’t be correct, because it wouldn’t be possible for everyone in the world to rely on bitcoin. And in any case, there are other ways to build a global system for transferring money that is many orders of magnitude more efficient, so there is still no reason for society to support the cost of bitcoin, because it’s a terrible alternative. And no, people don’t want or need a completely decentralized, trustless etc payment system. It’s a non-goal.
    - noch 6y ago
      > And in any case, there are other ways to build a global system for transferring money that is many orders of magnitude more efficient, so there is still no reason for society to support the cost of bitcoin, because it’s a terrible alternative. Good. Build one. That's a huge arbitrage opportunity. The market will decide. Meanwhile we'll continue building systems on top of Bitcoin[2]. Game on. See you in 50 years. > And no, people don’t want or need a completely decentralized, trustless etc payment system. It’s a non-goal Now you're being hopelessly naive to the point of being helpless and ineffective in the real world. Travel the world a bit. Learn what real humans need. Learn history.[0] Learn how many have been ruined by a legacy financial system built on manipulable currencies and fiat.[3] At the very least, open your mind[1] and just learn instead of pounding your chest to confirm your narrow priors. The goal is to get smarter not less smart. [0]: https://breedlove22.medium.com/our-most-brilliant-idea-aced329f8941 https://breedlove22.medium.com/our-most-brilliant-idea-aced3... [1]: https://breedlove22.medium.com/bitcoin-is-hope-bedce21b3648 https://breedlove22.medium.com/bitcoin-is-hope-bedce21b3648 [2]: https://dergigi.com/2021/01/14/bitcoin-is-time/ https://dergigi.com/2021/01/14/bitcoin-is-time/ [3]: https://breedlove22.medium.com/masters-and-slaves-of-money-255ecc93404f https://breedlove22.medium.com/masters-and-slaves-of-money-2...
      - Grustaf 6y ago
        Just like a marxist you keep coming back to “you need to learn more”. I already know a fair bit, that is not the issue here. And I’ve lived long term in places as diverse as Japan, Russia, China, the Middle East and Scandinavia, so I don’t lack experience of the world. That’s why I know that normal people don’t care about trustless or decentralized money. As to bitcoin alternatives, there are plenty, both with crypto and without. Many other cryptos are technically far superior to bitcoin, but go almost unused because that’s not the point.

by noch 6y ago

Grustaf 6y ago

Excellent analogy. No government would allow a car where the gas mileage decreased proportionally to how far you’ve driven since the car was made. That would be a very silly way to waste fuel.

noch 6y ago
> a car where the gas mileage decreased proportionally to how far you’ve driven since the car was made. Torturing metaphors: it's more useful to say that the gas/mile (kw per block) fuels all 21 million cars simultaneously, not just one car, and ensures that all the roads they've travelled remain useable, and that anyone in the world can use a car at any time and verify the journey it made and the cargo it carried. Further, each car can carry an arbitrary amount of cargo (the value of the transaction).
- Grustaf 6y ago
  That wouldn’t be correct, because it wouldn’t be possible for everyone in the world to rely on bitcoin. And in any case, there are other ways to build a global system for transferring money that is many orders of magnitude more efficient, so there is still no reason for society to support the cost of bitcoin, because it’s a terrible alternative. And no, people don’t want or need a completely decentralized, trustless etc payment system. It’s a non-goal.
  - noch 6y ago
    > And in any case, there are other ways to build a global system for transferring money that is many orders of magnitude more efficient, so there is still no reason for society to support the cost of bitcoin, because it’s a terrible alternative. Good. Build one. That's a huge arbitrage opportunity. The market will decide. Meanwhile we'll continue building systems on top of Bitcoin[2]. Game on. See you in 50 years. > And no, people don’t want or need a completely decentralized, trustless etc payment system. It’s a non-goal Now you're being hopelessly naive to the point of being helpless and ineffective in the real world. Travel the world a bit. Learn what real humans need. Learn history.[0] Learn how many have been ruined by a legacy financial system built on manipulable currencies and fiat.[3] At the very least, open your mind[1] and just learn instead of pounding your chest to confirm your narrow priors. The goal is to get smarter not less smart. [0]: https://breedlove22.medium.com/our-most-brilliant-idea-aced329f8941 https://breedlove22.medium.com/our-most-brilliant-idea-aced3... [1]: https://breedlove22.medium.com/bitcoin-is-hope-bedce21b3648 https://breedlove22.medium.com/bitcoin-is-hope-bedce21b3648 [2]: https://dergigi.com/2021/01/14/bitcoin-is-time/ https://dergigi.com/2021/01/14/bitcoin-is-time/ [3]: https://breedlove22.medium.com/masters-and-slaves-of-money-255ecc93404f https://breedlove22.medium.com/masters-and-slaves-of-money-2...
    - Grustaf 6y ago
      Just like a marxist you keep coming back to “you need to learn more”. I already know a fair bit, that is not the issue here. And I’ve lived long term in places as diverse as Japan, Russia, China, the Middle East and Scandinavia, so I don’t lack experience of the world. That’s why I know that normal people don’t care about trustless or decentralized money. As to bitcoin alternatives, there are plenty, both with crypto and without. Many other cryptos are technically far superior to bitcoin, but go almost unused because that’s not the point.