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This really shouldn’t come as a surprise. The average mobile user will give you app less than 30 seconds of their attention after first install so you’d better

by harryf 6y ago

This really shouldn’t come as a surprise. The average mobile user will give you app less than 30 seconds of their attention after first install so you’d better deliver some kind of result in that time or they’re gone, probably for good. Also chat users care more about GIFs than security. So the product better be good.

zie 6y ago
And none of the XMPP clients or any of the Matrix clients get the on-boarding step idiot-proof. Matrix tries harder at it, maybe they will eventually succeed. I have zero hope for XMPP, but I'm happy to be surprised.
- MattJ100 6y ago
  I actually am quite proud of what we've done for Snikket onboarding. To eliminate the "argh, what server?" step we focus on invites which guide you through the process, and ensure you have an initial contact or group, not an empty contact list. I tested it on many people while working on it. The vast majority (with no familiarity with XMPP or decentralized systems) were signed up in just a couple of minutes.
  - zie 6y ago
    Good to hear! I haven't tried Snikket, but the more idiot-proof you can make it, the better. Invites seems overly complicated. Can you make it 1 question? what's your email address? Then you just sign them up for a server and tell them after the fact, hey look, you are all setup with server SpiffyXMPPServer Tell your friends to contact you at: <full xmpp address here>
    - jssfr 6y ago
      Who would be operating that server? For how many people? With which privacy policy and which SLAs? Is it just one server (= centralisation and SPOF) or many servers? The idea behind Snikket (as I understand it) is more along the lines of having a tech-savvy person in your environment who’ll set up a Snikket instance for you and where they all invite the folks important to them. That means reduced centralisation while providing a lean user experience. The invites are (especially on android) super low-friction (you are presented with a nearly-complete signup after app install; you only have to enter a username (not a domain name, that’s included in the invite; just a username)). Thanks to being federated with the entire XMPP ecosystem, it can still interoperate with users who are on Quicksy or any other XMPP service out there, which is nice. I think an invite-based approach is a good middle-way to avoid encouraging centralisation (think matrix.org, jabber.org, or worse) and keeping the onboarding friction as low as possible.
      - zie 6y ago
        I didn't say it was easy :) I think you could sign up across a set of servers, whoever is willing to put their server in the list. But you are correct, there are a host of issues, since it's all decentralized. That's the cost of decentralization, but there are solutions. One would be to be put on the list your SLA/privacy policies/etc must meet some min. standards(1) exist 2) be found at a .well-known/ etc. that way the client can easily show them to the curious user. The problem with just a username, is that's not what you need to converse with ANYONE in XMPP land, you need the full XMPP address, and last I checked, no client makes that easy for you to figure out. The full XMPP address should be easy to find as that's what you actually need. Just a username doesn't work, give up on only a username being all you need, it isn't. I think doing invites from a tech savvy snikket server instance makes sense FOR THAT USE CASE. For Tito's Grandma, where Tito & Grandma are not tech savvy people.. that's not easy. Tito gets setup on server Y and Grandma gets setup on server Z, and neither of them can talk to each other because the client only shows the 'username'. Again, I haven't knowingly used Snikket, but last time I played in XMPP, it was non-trivial, even for a tech savvy person.
        Zash 6y ago
        That's why Snikket has a focus on easy invites that automate on-boarding and contact creation. Other parts of the XMPP ecosystem also have easy invites that can be shared via QR code, SMS or any other messenger. Example: https://yax.im/i/#user@example.com https://yax.im/i/#user@example.com or https://conversations.im/i/user@example.com https://conversations.im/i/user@example.com See also https://yaxim.org/blog/2020/01/31/yaxim-0-dot-9-9-fosdem-edition/ https://yaxim.org/blog/2020/01/31/yaxim-0-dot-9-9-fosdem-edi...
        zie 6y ago
        neat! It's seems my client doesn't understand these though. YAY for federated protocols! :)
- southerntofu 6y ago
  Onboarding some services is surprisingly easy. Like MattJ mentioned there is now prosody's mod_invites. For phone-based users, quicksy.im is doing a very good onboarding job. It's a fork of conversations (by the same maintainers) with phone-number based contact discovery like Signal and others do. Also worth mentioning, when you have privacy in mind, Jabber/XMPP is very easy to join as most operators don't have any problem with Tor users, and Tor support (also other proxies) is well supported in most clients.
dylan604 6y ago
>Also chat users care more about GIFs than security. This is why it is so important that the devs care about the security and just make it part of the app without needing the user to do anything other than use the app.

by harryf 6y ago

zie 6y ago

And none of the XMPP clients or any of the Matrix clients get the on-boarding step idiot-proof. Matrix tries harder at it, maybe they will eventually succeed. I have zero hope for XMPP, but I'm happy to be surprised.

MattJ100 6y ago
I actually am quite proud of what we've done for Snikket onboarding. To eliminate the "argh, what server?" step we focus on invites which guide you through the process, and ensure you have an initial contact or group, not an empty contact list. I tested it on many people while working on it. The vast majority (with no familiarity with XMPP or decentralized systems) were signed up in just a couple of minutes.
- zie 6y ago
  Good to hear! I haven't tried Snikket, but the more idiot-proof you can make it, the better. Invites seems overly complicated. Can you make it 1 question? what's your email address? Then you just sign them up for a server and tell them after the fact, hey look, you are all setup with server SpiffyXMPPServer Tell your friends to contact you at: <full xmpp address here>
  - jssfr 6y ago
    Who would be operating that server? For how many people? With which privacy policy and which SLAs? Is it just one server (= centralisation and SPOF) or many servers? The idea behind Snikket (as I understand it) is more along the lines of having a tech-savvy person in your environment who’ll set up a Snikket instance for you and where they all invite the folks important to them. That means reduced centralisation while providing a lean user experience. The invites are (especially on android) super low-friction (you are presented with a nearly-complete signup after app install; you only have to enter a username (not a domain name, that’s included in the invite; just a username)). Thanks to being federated with the entire XMPP ecosystem, it can still interoperate with users who are on Quicksy or any other XMPP service out there, which is nice. I think an invite-based approach is a good middle-way to avoid encouraging centralisation (think matrix.org, jabber.org, or worse) and keeping the onboarding friction as low as possible.
    - zie 6y ago
      I didn't say it was easy :) I think you could sign up across a set of servers, whoever is willing to put their server in the list. But you are correct, there are a host of issues, since it's all decentralized. That's the cost of decentralization, but there are solutions. One would be to be put on the list your SLA/privacy policies/etc must meet some min. standards(1) exist 2) be found at a .well-known/ etc. that way the client can easily show them to the curious user. The problem with just a username, is that's not what you need to converse with ANYONE in XMPP land, you need the full XMPP address, and last I checked, no client makes that easy for you to figure out. The full XMPP address should be easy to find as that's what you actually need. Just a username doesn't work, give up on only a username being all you need, it isn't. I think doing invites from a tech savvy snikket server instance makes sense FOR THAT USE CASE. For Tito's Grandma, where Tito & Grandma are not tech savvy people.. that's not easy. Tito gets setup on server Y and Grandma gets setup on server Z, and neither of them can talk to each other because the client only shows the 'username'. Again, I haven't knowingly used Snikket, but last time I played in XMPP, it was non-trivial, even for a tech savvy person.
      - Zash 6y ago
        That's why Snikket has a focus on easy invites that automate on-boarding and contact creation. Other parts of the XMPP ecosystem also have easy invites that can be shared via QR code, SMS or any other messenger. Example: https://yax.im/i/#user@example.com https://yax.im/i/#user@example.com or https://conversations.im/i/user@example.com https://conversations.im/i/user@example.com See also https://yaxim.org/blog/2020/01/31/yaxim-0-dot-9-9-fosdem-edition/ https://yaxim.org/blog/2020/01/31/yaxim-0-dot-9-9-fosdem-edi...
        zie 6y ago
        neat! It's seems my client doesn't understand these though. YAY for federated protocols! :)
southerntofu 6y ago
Onboarding some services is surprisingly easy. Like MattJ mentioned there is now prosody's mod_invites. For phone-based users, quicksy.im is doing a very good onboarding job. It's a fork of conversations (by the same maintainers) with phone-number based contact discovery like Signal and others do. Also worth mentioning, when you have privacy in mind, Jabber/XMPP is very easy to join as most operators don't have any problem with Tor users, and Tor support (also other proxies) is well supported in most clients.

dylan604 6y ago

>Also chat users care more about GIFs than security. This is why it is so important that the devs care about the security and just make it part of the app without needing the user to do anything other than use the app.