6 ms·

doesn't samsung have the capability to create its own fab hardware? if they are the supplier to themselves, wouldn't it be reasonable that they can prioritize d

doesn't samsung have the capability to create its own fab hardware? if they are the supplier to themselves, wouldn't it be reasonable that they can prioritize delivering to themsleves

kuschku 6y ago
ASML is the only supplier for EUV machines. Samsung can’t just create those easily themselves (or they would).
- Robotbeat 6y ago
  Is there any reason they couldn’t just start with multipatterning 193nm immersion? Maybe even ship that equipment out from a facility being upgraded. Also, ASML’s EUV light source division was fairly recently (2013) acquired from... California. Cymer, LLC.
  - baybal2 6y ago
    Retooling of anymuch modern fabs is not economical. I don't see much retooling for anything below 45nm, if not 65nm.
  - kokx 6y ago
    The type of equipment ASML produces generally gets brought in at a specific time during the construction. They kinda build the cleanrooms around ASML's machines instead of bringing them in afterwards. Retooling for EUV (or any new generation of such equipment) is very hard. Most (if not all) foundries build new factories rather than retooling old ones.
    - totalZero 6y ago
      > They kinda build the cleanrooms around ASML's machines instead of bringing them in afterwards. I know they're massive, but do you have a source for this? I was under the impression that construction and tool installation are two distinctly separate phases of construction due to the requirements for an immaculate environment. Also, my understanding is that companies like to bring the tools in as late as possible to shorten the delay between capex outlay (tools are expensive) and first production.
      - kokx 6y ago
        My source for this is my professors at the TU/e in Eindhoven and guest lecturers from ASML (TU/e is the closest university to the ASML campus in Veldhoven). Unfortunately I don't have a more reliable source on that though.
  - adriancr 6y ago
    multipatterning DUV will get you up to a point if thats what you were asking. You cant reach 5nm with that. (if that were possible you wouldnt see everyone jumping on ASMLs euv bandwagon) As for lightsource, sure, that was/is a US company, but there's a lot more to a machine then just the light source.
  - baybal2 6y ago
    > Is there any reason they couldn’t just start with multipatterning 193nm immersion? Time, yields, line size. Quadruple patterning quadrupples the lithography steps counts. And quadrupples thermal cycles. Which adds more than 4x impact on the number of bad wafers. 100% - 2% * 4 != 100% * 0.98⁴ You need 4x the equipment to complete the same volume of wafers in the same time, which means 4x the line length.
avs733 6y ago
not that I am aware of (read: no unless someone proves me dumb) Major supppliers include: Nikon ASML KLA-Tencor Applied Materials (AMAT) Lam Research the timeline they are suggesting isn't literally impossible as a matter of phyics but is, to me, laughably unrealistic and likely done to try and extract tax incentives. Unless they have already broken ground in Texas...and are just shopping for a better deal
- baybal2 6y ago
  > Major supppliers include: Add like 100 more companies to the list. A fab is not only a lithographic line, but a ton of other very unique, industry specific equipment. Air handling for fabs stuff is up to 24 months lead time, and has no use in any other industry. Ultra clean water plants — 9 to 18 months. Just two vendors on the planet. Gas plants — take few years to construct by themselves Chem plants — again years long lead time equipment from only one vendor in the world On site mask shops — equipment, and processes not much cheaper, or less scarce than the last gen chip making gear itself. Cleaning stations, degassing stations, industry specific SCADA hardware, AMHS... (https://youtu.be/XKXZT-BBUEE https://youtu.be/XKXZT-BBUEE) Post-backend stuff... The list will go on for a few screens.
  - mhh__ 6y ago
    Even a Pencil (I, Pencil) takes thousands and thousands of people, I'm guessing it's on the order of millions for a big fab.
  - avs733 6y ago
    I’m honestly surprised we have not seen a blank wafer shortage. I remember the craziness post 2011 earthquake...”well how many wafers do we have”
    - nl 6y ago
      There is a blank wafer shortage, but - strangely - for 200mm wafers (not the state-of-the-art 300mm ones) https://www.extremetech.com/computing/318554-a-massive-chip-shortage-is-hitting-the-entire-semiconductor-industry https://www.extremetech.com/computing/318554-a-massive-chip-...

doesn't samsung have the capability to create its own fab hardware? if they are the supplier to themselves, wouldn't it be reasonable that they can prioritize delivering to themsleves

kuschku 6y ago

ASML is the only supplier for EUV machines. Samsung can’t just create those easily themselves (or they would).

Robotbeat 6y ago
Is there any reason they couldn’t just start with multipatterning 193nm immersion? Maybe even ship that equipment out from a facility being upgraded. Also, ASML’s EUV light source division was fairly recently (2013) acquired from... California. Cymer, LLC.
- baybal2 6y ago
  Retooling of anymuch modern fabs is not economical. I don't see much retooling for anything below 45nm, if not 65nm.
- kokx 6y ago
  The type of equipment ASML produces generally gets brought in at a specific time during the construction. They kinda build the cleanrooms around ASML's machines instead of bringing them in afterwards. Retooling for EUV (or any new generation of such equipment) is very hard. Most (if not all) foundries build new factories rather than retooling old ones.
  - totalZero 6y ago
    > They kinda build the cleanrooms around ASML's machines instead of bringing them in afterwards. I know they're massive, but do you have a source for this? I was under the impression that construction and tool installation are two distinctly separate phases of construction due to the requirements for an immaculate environment. Also, my understanding is that companies like to bring the tools in as late as possible to shorten the delay between capex outlay (tools are expensive) and first production.
    - kokx 6y ago
      My source for this is my professors at the TU/e in Eindhoven and guest lecturers from ASML (TU/e is the closest university to the ASML campus in Veldhoven). Unfortunately I don't have a more reliable source on that though.
- adriancr 6y ago
  multipatterning DUV will get you up to a point if thats what you were asking. You cant reach 5nm with that. (if that were possible you wouldnt see everyone jumping on ASMLs euv bandwagon) As for lightsource, sure, that was/is a US company, but there's a lot more to a machine then just the light source.
- baybal2 6y ago
  > Is there any reason they couldn’t just start with multipatterning 193nm immersion? Time, yields, line size. Quadruple patterning quadrupples the lithography steps counts. And quadrupples thermal cycles. Which adds more than 4x impact on the number of bad wafers. 100% - 2% * 4 != 100% * 0.98⁴ You need 4x the equipment to complete the same volume of wafers in the same time, which means 4x the line length.

avs733 6y ago

not that I am aware of (read: no unless someone proves me dumb) Major supppliers include: Nikon ASML KLA-Tencor Applied Materials (AMAT) Lam Research the timeline they are suggesting isn't literally impossible as a matter of phyics but is, to me, laughably unrealistic and likely done to try and extract tax incentives. Unless they have already broken ground in Texas...and are just shopping for a better deal

baybal2 6y ago
> Major supppliers include: Add like 100 more companies to the list. A fab is not only a lithographic line, but a ton of other very unique, industry specific equipment. Air handling for fabs stuff is up to 24 months lead time, and has no use in any other industry. Ultra clean water plants — 9 to 18 months. Just two vendors on the planet. Gas plants — take few years to construct by themselves Chem plants — again years long lead time equipment from only one vendor in the world On site mask shops — equipment, and processes not much cheaper, or less scarce than the last gen chip making gear itself. Cleaning stations, degassing stations, industry specific SCADA hardware, AMHS... (https://youtu.be/XKXZT-BBUEE https://youtu.be/XKXZT-BBUEE) Post-backend stuff... The list will go on for a few screens.
- mhh__ 6y ago
  Even a Pencil (I, Pencil) takes thousands and thousands of people, I'm guessing it's on the order of millions for a big fab.
- avs733 6y ago
  I’m honestly surprised we have not seen a blank wafer shortage. I remember the craziness post 2011 earthquake...”well how many wafers do we have”
  - nl 6y ago
    There is a blank wafer shortage, but - strangely - for 200mm wafers (not the state-of-the-art 300mm ones) https://www.extremetech.com/computing/318554-a-massive-chip-shortage-is-hitting-the-entire-semiconductor-industry https://www.extremetech.com/computing/318554-a-massive-chip-...