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Does it bother anyone that China continues to hack us? It is very possible that this was a government-backed attack, which wouldn't be the first against Google

Does it bother anyone that China continues to hack us? It is very possible that this was a government-backed attack, which wouldn't be the first against Google by the Chinese government. The biggest problem is that these don't seem to be sophisticated attacks. They didn't find a backdoor or install some malicious piece of code...they simply "hacked people" with phishing scams. I think a great place for the US govt (and Google) to spend money would be to inform people about phishing and how to detect it. Being a savvy internet user, I sometimes forget that these scams that look ridiculous to me might very well look legitimate to someone else.

ansy 15y ago
Yeah, it bothers someone: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-13614125 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-13614125 Just today it is widely reported the Pentagon is setting a new policy that cyber attacks can be considered acts of war which lets the Pentagon retaliate with conventional weapons. Hack my email, get an ICBM.
- mike-cardwell 15y ago
  Posturing.
  - jackolas 15y ago
    That's a good 90% of their (The DOD's) job though.
- MatthewB 15y ago
  I saw this a few days ago. I believe that if another country hacked the US and took top secret data, it could potentially cause as much damage as a conventional weapon. So, using conventional weapons in retaliation for cyber-attacks doesn't seem that far fetched. We are definitely in an interesting time with regards to technology and policy. Both exciting and scary.
  - ansy 15y ago
    I would not be surprised if the United States got a specialized "Cyber Force" branch of the military sooner rather than later to go along with Army, Navy, and Air. There are apparently already papers about it like this one from 2008: PDF: http://www.albanylawjournal.org/articles/solce_0609.pdf http://www.albanylawjournal.org/articles/solce_0609.pdf Abstract: https://litigation-essentials.lexisnexis.com/webcd/app?action=DocumentDisplay&crawlid=1&doctype=cite&docid=18+Alb.+L.J.+Sci.+%26+Tech.+293&srctype=smi&srcid=3B15&key=5d2635183c5a79a521ba646298d739b3 https://litigation-essentials.lexisnexis.com/webcd/app?actio... Granted, that niche is somewhat filled by the NSA, but it is not a branch of the military per se. And increasingly cyberspace will be as important or more so than land, sea, and air. The problem is any formal "Cyber Force" announcement will kick off the 21st Century arms race. But forming a Cyber Force in secret will severely limit effectiveness. I think we're about at the tipping point when the United States sees a hacker battalion here and there as not enough. It needs strong hacker branch.
    - dantheman 15y ago
      I don't think you'll see a new branch, but there already is a Cyber Command - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Cyber_Command http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Cyber_Command
  - khafra 15y ago
    The problem is attribution. Imagine if all an Al-Qaeda hacker had to do to start a major war was to compromise a Chinese computer and use it to attack a sufficiently sensitive US military target.
marklabedz 15y ago
I'm sure its no accident that the Pentagon stated they may treat cyber attacks as "acts of war" - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-13614125 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-13614125
- hugh3 15y ago
  Except that unless they actually do treat it as an act of war, it's an empty and pointless threat. And they're clearly not treating it as an act of war, which is why the US (thankfully) isn't at war with China right now. Politically, going to war with China just because they hacked the SecDef's email would be an impossible sell to the American people, who frankly aren't that keen on starting World War 3 unless it's absolutely necessary. If the Pentagon is getting hacked by China then the correct response is better security, not making threats, whether idle or serious.
mike-cardwell 15y ago
I'd expect the US to be doing the exact same thing to China. I'd be surprised if they weren't.
- hugh3 15y ago
  Pretty much this. We spy on them, they spy on us. Not much to be done about it. It used to be bugs in hotel rooms, now it's email phishing schemes.
  - deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]
  - fakeer 15y ago
    Bingo!!
Volpe 15y ago
Easy to read western propaganda and jump to conclusions without viewing the whole picture. Of course the US hack the Chinese govt. Just because china don't publish accounts of attacks does not mean attacks are not occurring. We already know Google are quite jaded towards China given their failure to succeed in the china market. Thus I take anything they comment about China with a grain of salt, given they clearly have an agenda. An attack originating in Jinan does not necessarily mean chinese govt either. Given China's opaqueness on cyber issues, anyone wanting to hack anyone else could use china as a place to do it. Though I agree, governments should invest in educating people on phishing scams.
- davepage 15y ago
  50 cent army much?
  - misterbwong 15y ago
    Looks like it. 1 comment (the grandparent), account created 69 days ago, shilling for the Chinese government. For those who don't get the reference, here's an article that explains it: http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2008/sep/22/chinathemedia.marketingandpr http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2008/sep/22/chinathemedia.ma...
    - Volpe 15y ago
      I see, so rather than actually discuss the points I make, just attack me as some chinese govt astro-turfer... wtf!? Just because I haven't commented before doesn't make my comment less valid... does it?
      - slug 15y ago
        Unfortunately, after seeing the firewall logs of several Internet facing machines in distinct hosting providers in different parts of the world, it's quite interesting to notice that 90% if not more of the port scans, http vulnerability scans, among others, come from network blocks from that part of the planet. Even more illuminating that if their great firewall is so advanced, being able to block anything on a need basis, is not concerned on blocking these.
denimboy 15y ago
What bothers me at least is that although Google finds these things (thank you), how many non-gmail accounts have been hacked but nobody has noticed yet.
mixmax 15y ago
The reason we only see the unsophisticated attacks might well be that the ones that are carried out professionally are never caught. If I was China and intent on this kind of cybercrime I wouldn't put all my eggs in one basket, but would try different avenues to get to my target. Resources don't seem to be a problem since it's apparently government backed. I would see this as the top of the iceberg, and expect there to be more sophisticated attacks hiding out there that we might never know about.
- niels_olson 15y ago
  > expect there to be more sophisticated attacks Like hacking SecureID? The previous attack Google discussed? The fact that just about anyone on port 22 sees half or more of their port-knocking from China? Shawn Carpenter's Titan Rain? (oh, wait, EMC now owns RSA and NetWitness ...)
temphn 15y ago
The US Government has backdoors into every large webservice in the world. China has to hack their way in. That's the main difference here, as the USG long ago stopped being "on our side".

ansy 15y ago

Yeah, it bothers someone: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-13614125 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-13614125 Just today it is widely reported the Pentagon is setting a new policy that cyber attacks can be considered acts of war which lets the Pentagon retaliate with conventional weapons. Hack my email, get an ICBM.

mike-cardwell 15y ago
Posturing.
- jackolas 15y ago
  That's a good 90% of their (The DOD's) job though.
MatthewB 15y ago
I saw this a few days ago. I believe that if another country hacked the US and took top secret data, it could potentially cause as much damage as a conventional weapon. So, using conventional weapons in retaliation for cyber-attacks doesn't seem that far fetched. We are definitely in an interesting time with regards to technology and policy. Both exciting and scary.
- ansy 15y ago
  I would not be surprised if the United States got a specialized "Cyber Force" branch of the military sooner rather than later to go along with Army, Navy, and Air. There are apparently already papers about it like this one from 2008: PDF: http://www.albanylawjournal.org/articles/solce_0609.pdf http://www.albanylawjournal.org/articles/solce_0609.pdf Abstract: https://litigation-essentials.lexisnexis.com/webcd/app?action=DocumentDisplay&crawlid=1&doctype=cite&docid=18+Alb.+L.J.+Sci.+%26+Tech.+293&srctype=smi&srcid=3B15&key=5d2635183c5a79a521ba646298d739b3 https://litigation-essentials.lexisnexis.com/webcd/app?actio... Granted, that niche is somewhat filled by the NSA, but it is not a branch of the military per se. And increasingly cyberspace will be as important or more so than land, sea, and air. The problem is any formal "Cyber Force" announcement will kick off the 21st Century arms race. But forming a Cyber Force in secret will severely limit effectiveness. I think we're about at the tipping point when the United States sees a hacker battalion here and there as not enough. It needs strong hacker branch.
  - dantheman 15y ago
    I don't think you'll see a new branch, but there already is a Cyber Command - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Cyber_Command http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Cyber_Command
- khafra 15y ago
  The problem is attribution. Imagine if all an Al-Qaeda hacker had to do to start a major war was to compromise a Chinese computer and use it to attack a sufficiently sensitive US military target.

marklabedz 15y ago

I'm sure its no accident that the Pentagon stated they may treat cyber attacks as "acts of war" - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-13614125 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-13614125

hugh3 15y ago
Except that unless they actually do treat it as an act of war, it's an empty and pointless threat. And they're clearly not treating it as an act of war, which is why the US (thankfully) isn't at war with China right now. Politically, going to war with China just because they hacked the SecDef's email would be an impossible sell to the American people, who frankly aren't that keen on starting World War 3 unless it's absolutely necessary. If the Pentagon is getting hacked by China then the correct response is better security, not making threats, whether idle or serious.

mike-cardwell 15y ago

I'd expect the US to be doing the exact same thing to China. I'd be surprised if they weren't.

hugh3 15y ago
Pretty much this. We spy on them, they spy on us. Not much to be done about it. It used to be bugs in hotel rooms, now it's email phishing schemes.
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
- fakeer 15y ago
  Bingo!!

Volpe 15y ago

Easy to read western propaganda and jump to conclusions without viewing the whole picture. Of course the US hack the Chinese govt. Just because china don't publish accounts of attacks does not mean attacks are not occurring. We already know Google are quite jaded towards China given their failure to succeed in the china market. Thus I take anything they comment about China with a grain of salt, given they clearly have an agenda. An attack originating in Jinan does not necessarily mean chinese govt either. Given China's opaqueness on cyber issues, anyone wanting to hack anyone else could use china as a place to do it. Though I agree, governments should invest in educating people on phishing scams.

davepage 15y ago
50 cent army much?
- misterbwong 15y ago
  Looks like it. 1 comment (the grandparent), account created 69 days ago, shilling for the Chinese government. For those who don't get the reference, here's an article that explains it: http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2008/sep/22/chinathemedia.marketingandpr http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2008/sep/22/chinathemedia.ma...
  - Volpe 15y ago
    I see, so rather than actually discuss the points I make, just attack me as some chinese govt astro-turfer... wtf!? Just because I haven't commented before doesn't make my comment less valid... does it?
    - slug 15y ago
      Unfortunately, after seeing the firewall logs of several Internet facing machines in distinct hosting providers in different parts of the world, it's quite interesting to notice that 90% if not more of the port scans, http vulnerability scans, among others, come from network blocks from that part of the planet. Even more illuminating that if their great firewall is so advanced, being able to block anything on a need basis, is not concerned on blocking these.

denimboy 15y ago

What bothers me at least is that although Google finds these things (thank you), how many non-gmail accounts have been hacked but nobody has noticed yet.

mixmax 15y ago

The reason we only see the unsophisticated attacks might well be that the ones that are carried out professionally are never caught. If I was China and intent on this kind of cybercrime I wouldn't put all my eggs in one basket, but would try different avenues to get to my target. Resources don't seem to be a problem since it's apparently government backed. I would see this as the top of the iceberg, and expect there to be more sophisticated attacks hiding out there that we might never know about.

niels_olson 15y ago
> expect there to be more sophisticated attacks Like hacking SecureID? The previous attack Google discussed? The fact that just about anyone on port 22 sees half or more of their port-knocking from China? Shawn Carpenter's Titan Rain? (oh, wait, EMC now owns RSA and NetWitness ...)

temphn 15y ago

The US Government has backdoors into every large webservice in the world. China has to hack their way in. That's the main difference here, as the USG long ago stopped being "on our side".