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First off, others have pointed out that these are 3rd party software companies providing the tools. I'd like to talk about your other point though: > I’ve nev

First off, others have pointed out that these are 3rd party software companies providing the tools. I'd like to talk about your other point though: > I’ve never met a skilled developer willing to work for what the government pays So there are a lot of very skilled developers working for the government right now. I'd agree you probably haven't met them. I've found that people who work for the government, especially on TS/SCI systems, do not go out and "network". They usually can't or won't talk about their work. Yes they get paid far lower than what they'd get from a SV startup, but maybe people aren't solely motivated by money. There are some nice things about working for certain parts of the government. First off, there is excellent job security. You pretty much never have to worry about getting fired, it isn't even in the back of your brain. Comparing that to a startup where you are almost always out of breath being worked too hard and you have that fear every day your job is going to disappear. Second, while the pay not be totally up to par, it also isn't bad. The hours are also great, there are laws that govern contracts and projects that limit employees to 40 hours per week. You will not be asked to work over that, even in "crunch" time, because it breaks competition laws when contracts are offered up to outside agencies who put in bids to do the work. Lastly, and most importantly, there is often a sense of pride or duty involved in the job. I know HN isn't exactly the most rah-rah-yay-government crowd, but there are a lot of people out there who have a desire to serve the public somehow. They believe they can do more good on the inside compared to those on the outside who just simply complain about the government.

selykg 6y ago
Not a government worker, but I work in non-profit areas. I do make a lot less money in this role than I would in a startup environment or SV. But, work life balance is significantly better. Benefits are actually the best I've ever seen (no cost health plan and they put the full amount of the deductible in an HSA for me each year, generous 401k match with only a 1 year vesting schedule, summer hours so I can spend more time in daylight, a pension with a very easy vesting schedule, plenty of time off, etc). I'd work a government job for similar reasons. It's not about pay for me. I need enough to live, enough to plan for retirement, and a little extra to enjoy my life. I work to enjoy my life, I don't work to die early or just to work. My life comes first, work comes second and finding a company that respects that and encourages it to some extent, is worth more to me than high pay and a worse environment to work in.
ddtaylor 6y ago
It's also worth noting that depending on their security clearance they can't go out and network or have public-facing profiles.
- tptacek 6y ago
  There are plenty of prominent people in software security that have IC backgrounds.
  - bigiain 6y ago
    I’ll bet their prominence is fairly carefully vetted, and probably part of their job description rather than the more typical tech industry “personal brand building”. But then that’s evidently true of Google (and FAANG in general) as well.
    - tptacek 6y ago
      I'll bet pretty much nobody cares, inside or outside of the IC. It's a fun thing for people to joke about (they've been joking about Aitel for decades) but reality is mostly boring.
analognoise 6y ago
You forgot a huge dimension of those jobs: As you get older, you are more valuable. No "silicon valley" syndrome about age: you'd never have to dye your hair, wear a hoodie to fit in, nobody will blink if you have to take a day off to take care of the kids. You can be a real adult - nobody comes into those programs and expects a ball pit or a foosball table, and nobody seriously thinks someone right out of college but who is up on the "latest framework" could take their job - because the jobs are deeply, deeply technical and require lots of experience. If you blow the doors off of everyone else in programming, great! That's one dimension. But it usually isn't the only one. "The pay is worse" - for software, undoubtedly. For hardware? It's usually a wash after adjusting for cost of living and the benefits are better on the defense side. I like defense because the systems are usually pretty badass. We have people leave for FAAMG occasionally, so it's not like we don't know who the people who are "that good" are! :)
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- mhoad 6y ago
  I appreciate your ability to walk into the middle of the bee hive to knock it over with this comment. It was amusing to read and I don’t disagree with what you said but I don’t feel super qualified to judge either. I’ve only seen that silicon valley start up culture from the outside when my partner worked at a YC company while they were going through a later stage fundraising round. It wasn’t as cartoonish as you make it sound at all but your impression at least seemed in the ballpark of true.
- reaperducer 6y ago
  I know you're bring downvoted into oblivion for reverse ageism, but my experience mirrors your statements. I think the aggrieved HN masses just don't have similar, or much experience.
  - j45 6y ago
    +1. Also upvoting the original comment because no one seems to be disagreeing with it with any words. Solving really hard problems is valuable. Little gets easier, but you can get better at it. You have me wondering .. Does expertise from experience (whether compressed into a few years or a lot) qualify as reverse ageism? Is anyone being excluded or denigrated? It seems plausible (but not exclusively) that the more time and effort you apply to something, the better you will probably get at it. Time alone isn’t a measure of experience and expertise but it doesn’t hurt. It’s just describing what the experience of someone who has been at something for a while.. might end up like.
hnick 6y ago
From what I've heard, the hours you cite also enable moonlighting. Some people do a few hours a night and make as much as their day job. Sometimes it's even as a contractor in a related field that might service their main role. At least they're getting paid for this "overtime"!

selykg 6y ago

Not a government worker, but I work in non-profit areas. I do make a lot less money in this role than I would in a startup environment or SV. But, work life balance is significantly better. Benefits are actually the best I've ever seen (no cost health plan and they put the full amount of the deductible in an HSA for me each year, generous 401k match with only a 1 year vesting schedule, summer hours so I can spend more time in daylight, a pension with a very easy vesting schedule, plenty of time off, etc). I'd work a government job for similar reasons. It's not about pay for me. I need enough to live, enough to plan for retirement, and a little extra to enjoy my life. I work to enjoy my life, I don't work to die early or just to work. My life comes first, work comes second and finding a company that respects that and encourages it to some extent, is worth more to me than high pay and a worse environment to work in.

ddtaylor 6y ago

It's also worth noting that depending on their security clearance they can't go out and network or have public-facing profiles.

tptacek 6y ago
There are plenty of prominent people in software security that have IC backgrounds.
- bigiain 6y ago
  I’ll bet their prominence is fairly carefully vetted, and probably part of their job description rather than the more typical tech industry “personal brand building”. But then that’s evidently true of Google (and FAANG in general) as well.
  - tptacek 6y ago
    I'll bet pretty much nobody cares, inside or outside of the IC. It's a fun thing for people to joke about (they've been joking about Aitel for decades) but reality is mostly boring.

analognoise 6y ago

You forgot a huge dimension of those jobs: As you get older, you are more valuable. No "silicon valley" syndrome about age: you'd never have to dye your hair, wear a hoodie to fit in, nobody will blink if you have to take a day off to take care of the kids. You can be a real adult - nobody comes into those programs and expects a ball pit or a foosball table, and nobody seriously thinks someone right out of college but who is up on the "latest framework" could take their job - because the jobs are deeply, deeply technical and require lots of experience. If you blow the doors off of everyone else in programming, great! That's one dimension. But it usually isn't the only one. "The pay is worse" - for software, undoubtedly. For hardware? It's usually a wash after adjusting for cost of living and the benefits are better on the defense side. I like defense because the systems are usually pretty badass. We have people leave for FAAMG occasionally, so it's not like we don't know who the people who are "that good" are! :)

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
mhoad 6y ago
I appreciate your ability to walk into the middle of the bee hive to knock it over with this comment. It was amusing to read and I don’t disagree with what you said but I don’t feel super qualified to judge either. I’ve only seen that silicon valley start up culture from the outside when my partner worked at a YC company while they were going through a later stage fundraising round. It wasn’t as cartoonish as you make it sound at all but your impression at least seemed in the ballpark of true.
reaperducer 6y ago
I know you're bring downvoted into oblivion for reverse ageism, but my experience mirrors your statements. I think the aggrieved HN masses just don't have similar, or much experience.
- j45 6y ago
  +1. Also upvoting the original comment because no one seems to be disagreeing with it with any words. Solving really hard problems is valuable. Little gets easier, but you can get better at it. You have me wondering .. Does expertise from experience (whether compressed into a few years or a lot) qualify as reverse ageism? Is anyone being excluded or denigrated? It seems plausible (but not exclusively) that the more time and effort you apply to something, the better you will probably get at it. Time alone isn’t a measure of experience and expertise but it doesn’t hurt. It’s just describing what the experience of someone who has been at something for a while.. might end up like.

hnick 6y ago

From what I've heard, the hours you cite also enable moonlighting. Some people do a few hours a night and make as much as their day job. Sometimes it's even as a contractor in a related field that might service their main role. At least they're getting paid for this "overtime"!