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How is it possible that the FBI has so much advanced stuff when I’ve never met a skilled developer willing to work for what the government pays? Are their tools

by DC1350 6y ago

How is it possible that the FBI has so much advanced stuff when I’ve never met a skilled developer willing to work for what the government pays? Are their tools developed by high paid contractors?

notyourday 6y ago
Most of skills required gov operations are done via companies holding government contracts. Those that work for government directly for a low pay compared to what they could get in the industry simply aren't smart enough to figure out how to work via a 3rd party for a much higher pay.
fl0wenol 6y ago
Yes.
Miner49er 6y ago
There's companies that sell exploits like this to governments.
jaywalk 6y ago
You clearly didn't read the article, since they call out the two companies who supply this type of technology to law enforcement organizations.
- DC1350 6y ago
  I’m more interested in their compensation than how they get paid. I know lots of work is done by contractors.
  - warent 6y ago
    I don't get this. Your original comment said "Are their tools developed by high paid contractors?" but now you're claiming to have already known. What exactly are you asking?
    - DC1350 6y ago
      I know contractors are common but I don’t know if they’re paid a lot or if they can ignore the government employee pay scale.
      - Jtsummers 6y ago
        Of course they can ignore the gov't employee pay scale. Contractors get paid variable amounts, depending on what they're working on and for whom. Many defense contractors (can't speak to the intel side of things) get paid 25-100% more than their GS counterparts, if they have an actual counterpart. Though that's not universal. Their pay is also not capped, like civilian pay is in the US federal government. EDIT: For further context, a technical GS employee (engineer, computer scientist) will be in a minimum of a GS-12 position after a few years of experience (usually 3-5). Most technical positions cap at GS-14. GS-15 is the highest of the GS grades, but mostly reserved for management and a select smaller group of senior technical people. A GS employee programmer will usually be a GS-12 or GS-13 until they reach a more senior position (usually with a higher degree than just a BS and often 10-20 years of experience, tending towards the higher end of that). Here is a link to the base pay, everyone gets more than this but it depends on where they work: https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/salaries-wages/salary-tables/21Tables/html/GS.aspx https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/salaries... Federal employees also get a 5% match on their 401k equivalent (TSP), 13-26 days of leave a year (rolls over, cap at 30), 13 days of sick leave a year (rolls over, no max), 10 federal holidays, a pension (1% of pay for each year of service, 20 years = 20%), and pretty decent insurance. If the goal isn't "get rich quick", it's not a bad gig.
        chrononaut 6y ago
        > everyone gets more than this but it depends on where they work For those interested, here is a link to the base pay with the locality adjustment for each geographic area: https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/salaries-wages/2021/general-schedule/ https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/salaries...
        bigiain 6y ago
  - jaywalk 6y ago
    It has nothing to do with contractors. The FBI buys a product from a company that does this stuff. They do not develop it, nor do they contract out the work to develop it. They buy an (essentially) off the shelf product that does this.
nosequel 6y ago
First off, others have pointed out that these are 3rd party software companies providing the tools. I'd like to talk about your other point though: > I’ve never met a skilled developer willing to work for what the government pays So there are a lot of very skilled developers working for the government right now. I'd agree you probably haven't met them. I've found that people who work for the government, especially on TS/SCI systems, do not go out and "network". They usually can't or won't talk about their work. Yes they get paid far lower than what they'd get from a SV startup, but maybe people aren't solely motivated by money. There are some nice things about working for certain parts of the government. First off, there is excellent job security. You pretty much never have to worry about getting fired, it isn't even in the back of your brain. Comparing that to a startup where you are almost always out of breath being worked too hard and you have that fear every day your job is going to disappear. Second, while the pay not be totally up to par, it also isn't bad. The hours are also great, there are laws that govern contracts and projects that limit employees to 40 hours per week. You will not be asked to work over that, even in "crunch" time, because it breaks competition laws when contracts are offered up to outside agencies who put in bids to do the work. Lastly, and most importantly, there is often a sense of pride or duty involved in the job. I know HN isn't exactly the most rah-rah-yay-government crowd, but there are a lot of people out there who have a desire to serve the public somehow. They believe they can do more good on the inside compared to those on the outside who just simply complain about the government.
- selykg 6y ago
  Not a government worker, but I work in non-profit areas. I do make a lot less money in this role than I would in a startup environment or SV. But, work life balance is significantly better. Benefits are actually the best I've ever seen (no cost health plan and they put the full amount of the deductible in an HSA for me each year, generous 401k match with only a 1 year vesting schedule, summer hours so I can spend more time in daylight, a pension with a very easy vesting schedule, plenty of time off, etc). I'd work a government job for similar reasons. It's not about pay for me. I need enough to live, enough to plan for retirement, and a little extra to enjoy my life. I work to enjoy my life, I don't work to die early or just to work. My life comes first, work comes second and finding a company that respects that and encourages it to some extent, is worth more to me than high pay and a worse environment to work in.
mhh__ 6y ago
1. There are companies that sell technology to do this 2. The appeal of effectively being a spook has to attract some people to working for 3-letter agencies.
agilob 6y ago
> I’ve never met a skilled developer willing to work for what the government pays? Is that your bubble that's poorly skilled?
- xvector 6y ago
  It’s just reality. The vast majority of skilled developers will take a $450k job in SV over a $100k government job.
angry_octet 6y ago
Maybe you're hanging out with the wrong people?
jerry1979 6y ago
People sometimes have a hard time seeing outside their bubble. For example, how many Mormons do you know?
bumbada 6y ago
The gobertment does not need to use advanced stuff when they can just use coercion. https://xkcd.com/538/ https://xkcd.com/538/ When the Roman Empire wanted something like water engineering or gold mining they found out who did it best, and then did invade the territory and enslave those who knew how to do it. Steel traders from India will tell Romans it came from China so they did not invade it. When the US three letter agencies want something from some company, they use a similar strategy: You are with us or against us. You can let us install backdoors in your software or you are a terrorist that support terrorists.
- bigiain 6y ago
  Replace “water engineering” and “gold mining” with “oil” and “lithium mining” to see that the world hasn’t changed much in some important ways in 2000 years, no matter how thin our phones are or how close to self driving our cars are getting...
TrackerFF 6y ago
For some people, gov. agencies provide the following: 1. job security. 2. ideology. 3. attractive retirement plans. 4. interesting domain / things to work on. If you have a burning passion for catching bad guys, then you go working for the people that are catching bad buys. Pretty simple. Sure - the tech can (and probably will) be abused against regular folks, but for some people it's worth the price if it means busting another pedophile/human trafficking/terrorist/etc. ring. It's a bit like asking why some doctors dedicate their professional lives to humanitarian work, when they could make 10x more as a GP in some cushy suburb. For some, ideology and mission counts A LOT.

by DC1350 6y ago

How is it possible that the FBI has so much advanced stuff when I’ve never met a skilled developer willing to work for what the government pays? Are their tools developed by high paid contractors?

notyourday 6y ago

Most of skills required gov operations are done via companies holding government contracts. Those that work for government directly for a low pay compared to what they could get in the industry simply aren't smart enough to figure out how to work via a 3rd party for a much higher pay.

fl0wenol 6y ago

Yes.

Miner49er 6y ago

There's companies that sell exploits like this to governments.

jaywalk 6y ago

You clearly didn't read the article, since they call out the two companies who supply this type of technology to law enforcement organizations.

DC1350 6y ago
I’m more interested in their compensation than how they get paid. I know lots of work is done by contractors.
- warent 6y ago
  I don't get this. Your original comment said "Are their tools developed by high paid contractors?" but now you're claiming to have already known. What exactly are you asking?
  - DC1350 6y ago
    I know contractors are common but I don’t know if they’re paid a lot or if they can ignore the government employee pay scale.
    - Jtsummers 6y ago
      Of course they can ignore the gov't employee pay scale. Contractors get paid variable amounts, depending on what they're working on and for whom. Many defense contractors (can't speak to the intel side of things) get paid 25-100% more than their GS counterparts, if they have an actual counterpart. Though that's not universal. Their pay is also not capped, like civilian pay is in the US federal government. EDIT: For further context, a technical GS employee (engineer, computer scientist) will be in a minimum of a GS-12 position after a few years of experience (usually 3-5). Most technical positions cap at GS-14. GS-15 is the highest of the GS grades, but mostly reserved for management and a select smaller group of senior technical people. A GS employee programmer will usually be a GS-12 or GS-13 until they reach a more senior position (usually with a higher degree than just a BS and often 10-20 years of experience, tending towards the higher end of that). Here is a link to the base pay, everyone gets more than this but it depends on where they work: https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/salaries-wages/salary-tables/21Tables/html/GS.aspx https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/salaries... Federal employees also get a 5% match on their 401k equivalent (TSP), 13-26 days of leave a year (rolls over, cap at 30), 13 days of sick leave a year (rolls over, no max), 10 federal holidays, a pension (1% of pay for each year of service, 20 years = 20%), and pretty decent insurance. If the goal isn't "get rich quick", it's not a bad gig.
      - chrononaut 6y ago
        > everyone gets more than this but it depends on where they work For those interested, here is a link to the base pay with the locality adjustment for each geographic area: https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/salaries-wages/2021/general-schedule/ https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/salaries...
      - bigiain 6y ago
- jaywalk 6y ago
  It has nothing to do with contractors. The FBI buys a product from a company that does this stuff. They do not develop it, nor do they contract out the work to develop it. They buy an (essentially) off the shelf product that does this.

nosequel 6y ago

First off, others have pointed out that these are 3rd party software companies providing the tools. I'd like to talk about your other point though: > I’ve never met a skilled developer willing to work for what the government pays So there are a lot of very skilled developers working for the government right now. I'd agree you probably haven't met them. I've found that people who work for the government, especially on TS/SCI systems, do not go out and "network". They usually can't or won't talk about their work. Yes they get paid far lower than what they'd get from a SV startup, but maybe people aren't solely motivated by money. There are some nice things about working for certain parts of the government. First off, there is excellent job security. You pretty much never have to worry about getting fired, it isn't even in the back of your brain. Comparing that to a startup where you are almost always out of breath being worked too hard and you have that fear every day your job is going to disappear. Second, while the pay not be totally up to par, it also isn't bad. The hours are also great, there are laws that govern contracts and projects that limit employees to 40 hours per week. You will not be asked to work over that, even in "crunch" time, because it breaks competition laws when contracts are offered up to outside agencies who put in bids to do the work. Lastly, and most importantly, there is often a sense of pride or duty involved in the job. I know HN isn't exactly the most rah-rah-yay-government crowd, but there are a lot of people out there who have a desire to serve the public somehow. They believe they can do more good on the inside compared to those on the outside who just simply complain about the government.

selykg 6y ago
Not a government worker, but I work in non-profit areas. I do make a lot less money in this role than I would in a startup environment or SV. But, work life balance is significantly better. Benefits are actually the best I've ever seen (no cost health plan and they put the full amount of the deductible in an HSA for me each year, generous 401k match with only a 1 year vesting schedule, summer hours so I can spend more time in daylight, a pension with a very easy vesting schedule, plenty of time off, etc). I'd work a government job for similar reasons. It's not about pay for me. I need enough to live, enough to plan for retirement, and a little extra to enjoy my life. I work to enjoy my life, I don't work to die early or just to work. My life comes first, work comes second and finding a company that respects that and encourages it to some extent, is worth more to me than high pay and a worse environment to work in.

mhh__ 6y ago

1. There are companies that sell technology to do this 2. The appeal of effectively being a spook has to attract some people to working for 3-letter agencies.

agilob 6y ago

> I’ve never met a skilled developer willing to work for what the government pays? Is that your bubble that's poorly skilled?

xvector 6y ago
It’s just reality. The vast majority of skilled developers will take a $450k job in SV over a $100k government job.

angry_octet 6y ago

Maybe you're hanging out with the wrong people?

jerry1979 6y ago

People sometimes have a hard time seeing outside their bubble. For example, how many Mormons do you know?

bumbada 6y ago

The gobertment does not need to use advanced stuff when they can just use coercion. https://xkcd.com/538/ https://xkcd.com/538/ When the Roman Empire wanted something like water engineering or gold mining they found out who did it best, and then did invade the territory and enslave those who knew how to do it. Steel traders from India will tell Romans it came from China so they did not invade it. When the US three letter agencies want something from some company, they use a similar strategy: You are with us or against us. You can let us install backdoors in your software or you are a terrorist that support terrorists.

bigiain 6y ago
Replace “water engineering” and “gold mining” with “oil” and “lithium mining” to see that the world hasn’t changed much in some important ways in 2000 years, no matter how thin our phones are or how close to self driving our cars are getting...

TrackerFF 6y ago

For some people, gov. agencies provide the following: 1. job security. 2. ideology. 3. attractive retirement plans. 4. interesting domain / things to work on. If you have a burning passion for catching bad guys, then you go working for the people that are catching bad buys. Pretty simple. Sure - the tech can (and probably will) be abused against regular folks, but for some people it's worth the price if it means busting another pedophile/human trafficking/terrorist/etc. ring. It's a bit like asking why some doctors dedicate their professional lives to humanitarian work, when they could make 10x more as a GP in some cushy suburb. For some, ideology and mission counts A LOT.