6 ms·

> I'm saying it's inefficient Compared to what else that provides a decentralised, censorship resistant monetary network without trusted third parties required

by noch 6y ago

> I'm saying it's inefficient Compared to what else that provides a decentralised, censorship resistant monetary network without trusted third parties required to secure it? > the metric mentioned is not relevant It's relevant in explaining the energy usage relative to economic value and architecture of an engineered monetary system. If you have a metric that can explain Bitcoin's design and value proposition with respect to energy consumption better than Dan Held's explanation, you should propose it and logically demonstrate your idea's superior explanatory and predictive power.

Grustaf 6y ago
> Compared to what else that provides a decentralised, censorship resistant monetary network without trusted third parties required to secure it? I don't particularly feel that any of those characteristics are very important, and I think most people would agree. > It's relevant in explaining the energy usage relative to economic value and architecture of an engineered monetary system Again, that is not how you construct a metric for how cost efficient something is. You start with the "job to be done" of the object. And storing all historical transactions forever is seldom desirable. If you want to measure the efficiency of electric cars vs combustion engine ones you look at things like miles/Wh or CO2 emissions/mile. You DON'T look at explosions per second or something like that. It might explain how combustion engines work but it is not the goal of a car.
- noch 6y ago
  > I don't particularly feel that any of those characteristics are very important, and I think most people would agree. Bitcoin doesn't care what you feel. It exists as an engineering artifact, continues to exist and functions to serve the needs of those who use it. Those who use it don't pay for it with their feelings but with their hard earned money. You evaluate a piece of engineering for what it aims to achieves not what you feel it should achieve. Bitcoin at block height 670061 has a market cap >USD800B. That's a lot of people who feel the characteristics of Bitcoin are valuable. Cf. A statement like: "I don't particularly feel HD screens on a phone are important and I think most people would agree that they're a waste and bad for the environment. Therefore HD screens shouldn't be in smart phones." > if you want to measure the efficiency of electric cars vs combustion engine ones you look at things like miles/Wh or CO2 emissions/mile. > You DON'T look at explosions per second or something like that. It might explain how combustion engines work but it is not the goal of a car. Again, Dan Held said: "the efficiency of Bitcoin’s PoW, should be defined in terms of the security of an economic history."[0] That history is perhaps analogous to the entire lifetime travel distance of the vehicle. Let a coin be a vehicle. There are 21M coins. Let a block be a mile long and infinitely wide (for transactions of any value can be contained in a block without limit to the value), for instance, and you can get your miles/Wh. Or just humbly study the Bitcoin timechain and understand what it does and why it does it. [0]: https://danhedl.medium.com/pow-is-efficient-aa3d442754d3 https://danhedl.medium.com/pow-is-efficient-aa3d442754d3
  - Grustaf 6y ago
    Excellent analogy. No government would allow a car where the gas mileage decreased proportionally to how far you’ve driven since the car was made. That would be a very silly way to waste fuel.
    - noch 6y ago
      > a car where the gas mileage decreased proportionally to how far you’ve driven since the car was made. Torturing metaphors: it's more useful to say that the gas/mile (kw per block) fuels all 21 million cars simultaneously, not just one car, and ensures that all the roads they've travelled remain useable, and that anyone in the world can use a car at any time and verify the journey it made and the cargo it carried. Further, each car can carry an arbitrary amount of cargo (the value of the transaction).
      - Grustaf 6y ago
        That wouldn’t be correct, because it wouldn’t be possible for everyone in the world to rely on bitcoin. And in any case, there are other ways to build a global system for transferring money that is many orders of magnitude more efficient, so there is still no reason for society to support the cost of bitcoin, because it’s a terrible alternative. And no, people don’t want or need a completely decentralized, trustless etc payment system. It’s a non-goal.
        noch 6y ago
        > And in any case, there are other ways to build a global system for transferring money that is many orders of magnitude more efficient, so there is still no reason for society to support the cost of bitcoin, because it’s a terrible alternative. Good. Build one. That's a huge arbitrage opportunity. The market will decide. Meanwhile we'll continue building systems on top of Bitcoin[2]. Game on. See you in 50 years. > And no, people don’t want or need a completely decentralized, trustless etc payment system. It’s a non-goal Now you're being hopelessly naive to the point of being helpless and ineffective in the real world. Travel the world a bit. Learn what real humans need. Learn history.[0] Learn how many have been ruined by a legacy financial system built on manipulable currencies and fiat.[3] At the very least, open your mind[1] and just learn instead of pounding your chest to confirm your narrow priors. The goal is to get smarter not less smart. [0]: https://breedlove22.medium.com/our-most-brilliant-idea-aced329f8941 https://breedlove22.medium.com/our-most-brilliant-idea-aced3... [1]: https://breedlove22.medium.com/bitcoin-is-hope-bedce21b3648 https://breedlove22.medium.com/bitcoin-is-hope-bedce21b3648 [2]: https://dergigi.com/2021/01/14/bitcoin-is-time/ https://dergigi.com/2021/01/14/bitcoin-is-time/ [3]: https://breedlove22.medium.com/masters-and-slaves-of-money-255ecc93404f https://breedlove22.medium.com/masters-and-slaves-of-money-2...

by noch 6y ago

Grustaf 6y ago

> Compared to what else that provides a decentralised, censorship resistant monetary network without trusted third parties required to secure it? I don't particularly feel that any of those characteristics are very important, and I think most people would agree. > It's relevant in explaining the energy usage relative to economic value and architecture of an engineered monetary system Again, that is not how you construct a metric for how cost efficient something is. You start with the "job to be done" of the object. And storing all historical transactions forever is seldom desirable. If you want to measure the efficiency of electric cars vs combustion engine ones you look at things like miles/Wh or CO2 emissions/mile. You DON'T look at explosions per second or something like that. It might explain how combustion engines work but it is not the goal of a car.

noch 6y ago
> I don't particularly feel that any of those characteristics are very important, and I think most people would agree. Bitcoin doesn't care what you feel. It exists as an engineering artifact, continues to exist and functions to serve the needs of those who use it. Those who use it don't pay for it with their feelings but with their hard earned money. You evaluate a piece of engineering for what it aims to achieves not what you feel it should achieve. Bitcoin at block height 670061 has a market cap >USD800B. That's a lot of people who feel the characteristics of Bitcoin are valuable. Cf. A statement like: "I don't particularly feel HD screens on a phone are important and I think most people would agree that they're a waste and bad for the environment. Therefore HD screens shouldn't be in smart phones." > if you want to measure the efficiency of electric cars vs combustion engine ones you look at things like miles/Wh or CO2 emissions/mile. > You DON'T look at explosions per second or something like that. It might explain how combustion engines work but it is not the goal of a car. Again, Dan Held said: "the efficiency of Bitcoin’s PoW, should be defined in terms of the security of an economic history."[0] That history is perhaps analogous to the entire lifetime travel distance of the vehicle. Let a coin be a vehicle. There are 21M coins. Let a block be a mile long and infinitely wide (for transactions of any value can be contained in a block without limit to the value), for instance, and you can get your miles/Wh. Or just humbly study the Bitcoin timechain and understand what it does and why it does it. [0]: https://danhedl.medium.com/pow-is-efficient-aa3d442754d3 https://danhedl.medium.com/pow-is-efficient-aa3d442754d3
- Grustaf 6y ago
  Excellent analogy. No government would allow a car where the gas mileage decreased proportionally to how far you’ve driven since the car was made. That would be a very silly way to waste fuel.
  - noch 6y ago
    > a car where the gas mileage decreased proportionally to how far you’ve driven since the car was made. Torturing metaphors: it's more useful to say that the gas/mile (kw per block) fuels all 21 million cars simultaneously, not just one car, and ensures that all the roads they've travelled remain useable, and that anyone in the world can use a car at any time and verify the journey it made and the cargo it carried. Further, each car can carry an arbitrary amount of cargo (the value of the transaction).
    - Grustaf 6y ago
      That wouldn’t be correct, because it wouldn’t be possible for everyone in the world to rely on bitcoin. And in any case, there are other ways to build a global system for transferring money that is many orders of magnitude more efficient, so there is still no reason for society to support the cost of bitcoin, because it’s a terrible alternative. And no, people don’t want or need a completely decentralized, trustless etc payment system. It’s a non-goal.
      - noch 6y ago
        > And in any case, there are other ways to build a global system for transferring money that is many orders of magnitude more efficient, so there is still no reason for society to support the cost of bitcoin, because it’s a terrible alternative. Good. Build one. That's a huge arbitrage opportunity. The market will decide. Meanwhile we'll continue building systems on top of Bitcoin[2]. Game on. See you in 50 years. > And no, people don’t want or need a completely decentralized, trustless etc payment system. It’s a non-goal Now you're being hopelessly naive to the point of being helpless and ineffective in the real world. Travel the world a bit. Learn what real humans need. Learn history.[0] Learn how many have been ruined by a legacy financial system built on manipulable currencies and fiat.[3] At the very least, open your mind[1] and just learn instead of pounding your chest to confirm your narrow priors. The goal is to get smarter not less smart. [0]: https://breedlove22.medium.com/our-most-brilliant-idea-aced329f8941 https://breedlove22.medium.com/our-most-brilliant-idea-aced3... [1]: https://breedlove22.medium.com/bitcoin-is-hope-bedce21b3648 https://breedlove22.medium.com/bitcoin-is-hope-bedce21b3648 [2]: https://dergigi.com/2021/01/14/bitcoin-is-time/ https://dergigi.com/2021/01/14/bitcoin-is-time/ [3]: https://breedlove22.medium.com/masters-and-slaves-of-money-255ecc93404f https://breedlove22.medium.com/masters-and-slaves-of-money-2...