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Funny trend: solar and wind power are now cheaper than coal. https://ourworldindata.org/uploads/2020/11/Price-of-electricity-new-renewables-vs-new-fossil.png h

Funny trend: solar and wind power are now cheaper than coal. https://ourworldindata.org/uploads/2020/11/Price-of-electricity-new-renewables-vs-new-fossil.png https://ourworldindata.org/uploads/2020/11/Price-of-electric... Here's a hot take: Bitcoin subsidizes clean energy development. Miners buy cheap energy; clean energy infrastructure gets profitable return. Cost of development and manufacturing lowers further because of scale; pollution and externalities reduced; humanity wins. Bitcoin saves humanity?

deeeeplearning 6y ago
>Miners buy cheap energy; clean energy infrastructure gets profitable return. This true in China where most mining happens?
- meowkit 6y ago
  Yes. China gets more of its energy from renewables than the US does. It is their fastest growing energy sector, and is a stated concern for economic and military security purposes. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_energy_in_China https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_energy_in_China
- coralreef 6y ago
  The data I've seen is spotty at best; maybe 40% of mining in China occurs in Inner Mongolia and is based on coal? That said, lets take a first principles approach. - Miners want low cost energy. - Renewables are the lowest cost energy. - Miners are not restricted geographically (can mine anywhere cheap energy is, beam bits through satellite internet). - Cost curves of renewable energy look very promising. - Social trends and political trends look very promising. If you believe in efficient markets, then it should be obvious as to what the next 10 years of energy production (and Bitcoin mining) look like.
- creaturemachine 6y ago
  China seems content in popping up dams wherever they please, no matter the human or ecological cost. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/2/8/china-to-build-the-worlds-biggest-dam-on-sacred-tibetan-river https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/2/8/china-to-build-the-w...
PragmaticPulp 6y ago
Cost of wind and solar was going down already. Bitcoin alone isn’t the driver. Bitcoin is, however, consuming some of that new energy generation with a new consumption: Doing useless calculations to mine Bitcoin. Bitcoin increases energy demand which also drives an increase in supply. We can’t take old power plants offline if the new hydro power is taken up by new mining operations. It’s silly that we’re going to such lengths to try to respin Bitcoin’s absurd energy inefficiency.
- mpfundstein 6y ago
  the calculations make sure the btc network works. so it can't be useless. or do you dismiss ALL of btc as useless?
  - bcheung 6y ago
    Well, there are alternatives consensus mechanism that look just as good if not superior like Proof of Stake that don't require all that electricity.
    - fileeditview 6y ago
      Do you have a link ready to any crypto that has a working proof-of-stake? Back when I was looking into this topic there was none.
      - bcheung 6y ago
        You can start with the Ethereum whitepaper. https://ethereum.org/en/whitepaper/ https://ethereum.org/en/whitepaper/
  - thezoginator 6y ago
    All of btc is useless! Please give an argument how it is not.
  - PragmaticPulp 6y ago
    You’re missing the point. The Bitcoin network is literally designed to incentivize, with payment, bringing new energy-inefficient operations online to “mine”. The efficiency of the network gets worse and worse all the time, all while processing the same limited number of transactions. Worse yet, Bitcoiners seem to like it this way. Proposals to increase block size have not been welcomed, and they go to great lengths to discourage switching to other protocols with better energy efficiency (because it would harm their investment). The entire system revolves around inefficiency, and unfortunately we pay for that inefficiency with energy consumption.
whimsicalism 6y ago
That's not what a subsidy is.
variaga 6y ago
Electical power is fungible and an increase in demand for any power increases the profitability of all existing sources of power including coal, reducing the rate at which fossil-fuel power sources will be replaced. The idea that consuming more power is good for the environment is not supported by the evidence. Or any evidence.
- coralreef 6y ago
  Electricity product from a coal plant vs a solar farm is the same, but its costs are not. The cost per kwh from a coal plant has not changed in 10 years. Solar has seen massive reductions and is cheaper than coal. Consuming more solar power is gives more profit to the solar power industry. I'm ok with that.
  - TomSwirly 6y ago
    This is delusion. Solar power is 1.7% of the world's electricity. Increasing electricity consumption will increase all forms of electricity production. I believe you don't even think about what you're saying. You start with the premise - "More energy consumed is naturally good" - and then invent an argument around it by throwing words together haphazardly.
    - coralreef 6y ago
      The theory is very straightforward. Miners consume electricity. Solar, wind and geothermal are the cheapest energy you can find, and their cost continues to fall. Miners are therefore incentivized to increase profit by buying cheap renewable energy. Renewable energy industry increases revenue and can continue to invest in R&D, infrastructure, distribution, etc. of said energy production. Costs go down for producing new units of renewable energy as a result of industry maturation.
georgyo 6y ago
If we take it a few steps out, it sounds like wasting energy can save the world. The more energy we waste the more energy we need, the more profitable cheap energy sources are! Of course the more profitable wasting energy becomes, the more coal and oil will be burned to make money as well.
- coralreef 6y ago
  One problem with "waste of energy" argument is that it assumes Bitcoin the network provides no value. People compare it to centralized, closed systems and say, "See how inefficient that is?". But what they're not calculating is the cost and suffering caused by maintaining the underlying system (fiat currency, petrodollars, geopolitics). Calculate for me the economic and human damage done if the US falls into hyperinflation and obliterates the world's reserve currency. It won't just be 350m people suffering, it will be billions. Decentralized, permissionless, censorship resistant systems suddenly seem very valuable to me.
cryptica 6y ago
Yeah of course, my electricity comes from renewable sources but my neighbor's electricity comes from fossil fuels... I can feel it in my gut. I'm a good person as evidenced by how much money I was able to accumulate so my electricity could only come from a good place like everything else in my wonderful life. I'm not making this up, my spiritual advisor told me so multiple times... Also I donated a bunch of money to Greta Thunberg... So much positive energy in my life. Only positive energy.
hhjj 6y ago
Bitcoin makes infinite resource finite, promote environmental protection?
rbancroft 6y ago
I also read somewhere that the majority of the bitcoin "engine" was located close to renewable power sources that did not otherwise have good markets to sell their power. Whether that's actually true or not, the possibility that bitcoin could find the low cost renewable sweet spots throughout the worlds power grid and make use of them is interesting and helps to address the efficiency criticism. I think I'm still overall anti-bitcoin but I am questioning my assumptions.
TomSwirly 6y ago
> Here's a hot take: Bitcoin subsidizes clean energy development. Like humans would have no interest in cheap power if it weren't for bitcoin!

deeeeplearning 6y ago

>Miners buy cheap energy; clean energy infrastructure gets profitable return. This true in China where most mining happens?

meowkit 6y ago
Yes. China gets more of its energy from renewables than the US does. It is their fastest growing energy sector, and is a stated concern for economic and military security purposes. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_energy_in_China https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_energy_in_China
coralreef 6y ago
The data I've seen is spotty at best; maybe 40% of mining in China occurs in Inner Mongolia and is based on coal? That said, lets take a first principles approach. - Miners want low cost energy. - Renewables are the lowest cost energy. - Miners are not restricted geographically (can mine anywhere cheap energy is, beam bits through satellite internet). - Cost curves of renewable energy look very promising. - Social trends and political trends look very promising. If you believe in efficient markets, then it should be obvious as to what the next 10 years of energy production (and Bitcoin mining) look like.
creaturemachine 6y ago
China seems content in popping up dams wherever they please, no matter the human or ecological cost. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/2/8/china-to-build-the-worlds-biggest-dam-on-sacred-tibetan-river https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/2/8/china-to-build-the-w...

PragmaticPulp 6y ago

Cost of wind and solar was going down already. Bitcoin alone isn’t the driver. Bitcoin is, however, consuming some of that new energy generation with a new consumption: Doing useless calculations to mine Bitcoin. Bitcoin increases energy demand which also drives an increase in supply. We can’t take old power plants offline if the new hydro power is taken up by new mining operations. It’s silly that we’re going to such lengths to try to respin Bitcoin’s absurd energy inefficiency.

mpfundstein 6y ago
the calculations make sure the btc network works. so it can't be useless. or do you dismiss ALL of btc as useless?
- bcheung 6y ago
  Well, there are alternatives consensus mechanism that look just as good if not superior like Proof of Stake that don't require all that electricity.
  - fileeditview 6y ago
    Do you have a link ready to any crypto that has a working proof-of-stake? Back when I was looking into this topic there was none.
    - bcheung 6y ago
      You can start with the Ethereum whitepaper. https://ethereum.org/en/whitepaper/ https://ethereum.org/en/whitepaper/
- thezoginator 6y ago
  All of btc is useless! Please give an argument how it is not.
- PragmaticPulp 6y ago
  You’re missing the point. The Bitcoin network is literally designed to incentivize, with payment, bringing new energy-inefficient operations online to “mine”. The efficiency of the network gets worse and worse all the time, all while processing the same limited number of transactions. Worse yet, Bitcoiners seem to like it this way. Proposals to increase block size have not been welcomed, and they go to great lengths to discourage switching to other protocols with better energy efficiency (because it would harm their investment). The entire system revolves around inefficiency, and unfortunately we pay for that inefficiency with energy consumption.

whimsicalism 6y ago

That's not what a subsidy is.

variaga 6y ago

Electical power is fungible and an increase in demand for any power increases the profitability of all existing sources of power including coal, reducing the rate at which fossil-fuel power sources will be replaced. The idea that consuming more power is good for the environment is not supported by the evidence. Or any evidence.

coralreef 6y ago
Electricity product from a coal plant vs a solar farm is the same, but its costs are not. The cost per kwh from a coal plant has not changed in 10 years. Solar has seen massive reductions and is cheaper than coal. Consuming more solar power is gives more profit to the solar power industry. I'm ok with that.
- TomSwirly 6y ago
  This is delusion. Solar power is 1.7% of the world's electricity. Increasing electricity consumption will increase all forms of electricity production. I believe you don't even think about what you're saying. You start with the premise - "More energy consumed is naturally good" - and then invent an argument around it by throwing words together haphazardly.
  - coralreef 6y ago
    The theory is very straightforward. Miners consume electricity. Solar, wind and geothermal are the cheapest energy you can find, and their cost continues to fall. Miners are therefore incentivized to increase profit by buying cheap renewable energy. Renewable energy industry increases revenue and can continue to invest in R&D, infrastructure, distribution, etc. of said energy production. Costs go down for producing new units of renewable energy as a result of industry maturation.

georgyo 6y ago

If we take it a few steps out, it sounds like wasting energy can save the world. The more energy we waste the more energy we need, the more profitable cheap energy sources are! Of course the more profitable wasting energy becomes, the more coal and oil will be burned to make money as well.

coralreef 6y ago
One problem with "waste of energy" argument is that it assumes Bitcoin the network provides no value. People compare it to centralized, closed systems and say, "See how inefficient that is?". But what they're not calculating is the cost and suffering caused by maintaining the underlying system (fiat currency, petrodollars, geopolitics). Calculate for me the economic and human damage done if the US falls into hyperinflation and obliterates the world's reserve currency. It won't just be 350m people suffering, it will be billions. Decentralized, permissionless, censorship resistant systems suddenly seem very valuable to me.

cryptica 6y ago

Yeah of course, my electricity comes from renewable sources but my neighbor's electricity comes from fossil fuels... I can feel it in my gut. I'm a good person as evidenced by how much money I was able to accumulate so my electricity could only come from a good place like everything else in my wonderful life. I'm not making this up, my spiritual advisor told me so multiple times... Also I donated a bunch of money to Greta Thunberg... So much positive energy in my life. Only positive energy.

hhjj 6y ago

Bitcoin makes infinite resource finite, promote environmental protection?

rbancroft 6y ago

I also read somewhere that the majority of the bitcoin "engine" was located close to renewable power sources that did not otherwise have good markets to sell their power. Whether that's actually true or not, the possibility that bitcoin could find the low cost renewable sweet spots throughout the worlds power grid and make use of them is interesting and helps to address the efficiency criticism. I think I'm still overall anti-bitcoin but I am questioning my assumptions.

TomSwirly 6y ago

> Here's a hot take: Bitcoin subsidizes clean energy development. Like humans would have no interest in cheap power if it weren't for bitcoin!