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That’s a neat slight of hand trick you’ve pulled off there, connecting Bitcoin to entertainment in order to shame those of us concerned about Bitcoin energy usa

That’s a neat slight of hand trick you’ve pulled off there, connecting Bitcoin to entertainment in order to shame those of us concerned about Bitcoin energy usage. Everything else you’ve listed provides subjective value to the user, which makes them hard to attack. Who can say what the value of skiing is to a society in terms of kWh? There is no way to objectively compare the value of energy spent on a ski lift vs. driving to see friends; that’s all subjective value. But the issue is that Bitcoin isn’t supposed to provide subjective value, it’s supposed to provide objective value; it’s literally supposed to be money. Once you remember that it’s supposed to literally be money, then comparisons to ski lifts become extremely disingenuous. It also becomes fair to compare Bitcoin against other competitors that provide the exact same service to society, comparisons that make Bitcoin look very wasteful indeed.

ric2b 6y ago
> But the issue is that Bitcoin isn’t supposed to provide subjective value, it’s supposed to provide objective value; it’s literally supposed to be money. Money's value is also subjective, I'm not sure what you think is objective about it. Sounds like you're just trying to dodge the comparison.
- ashtonkem 6y ago
  Definitionally, money’s value is not supposed to be subjective.
  - dragonwriter 6y ago
    > Definitionally, money’s value is not supposed to be subjective. Not only is that not true, but if to was it would just render “money” a non-concept, because definitionally value (in general, not just of money) is subjective.
    - ashtonkem 6y ago
      Ah, the “everything is subjective” rabbit hole. No thanks, that’s never a useful conversation. The purpose of any monetary system is to facilitate the exchange of goods and services. That’s why humans make money; to avoid the need to barter or depend on social credit systems that don’t scale well. This provides us some objective goals with which we can compare and contrast monetary systems against; while what one does with money is subjective, we can objectively compare the efficiency and ease with which a monetary system can facilitate transactions. In this area Bitcoin does terribly. This is probably why Bitcoin advocates have mostly moved onto “it’s a store of value”, that’s more a more defensible proposition.
      - dragonwriter 6y ago
        > Ah, the “everything is subjective” rabbit hole “Everything is subjective” is a (reasonable) epistemological argument about all access to data about the world being through subjective lenses, and thus all conclusions about the world being grounded in subjectivity. But that's not the sense in which value specifically is subjective. Value specifically is subjective because value is dependent on the subjective utility functions of people who have (or who might seek to acquire) the good and it's competing/alternative goods. > This provides us some objective goals That's about the value of a monetary system not the value of money, but both the specific goals, and more particularly how they are weighted against each other, remain subjective and the source of considerable disagreement.
      - ric2b 6y ago
        > we can objectively compare the efficiency and ease with which a monetary system can facilitate transactions. Ok. How much does ease of use matter for the value of a currency? 50%? 20%? 80%? What about all it's other characteristics? You can certainly be objective when comparing each characteristic in isolation but the value of the currency depends on how all of them are weighted against each other, and that is completely subjective. Just like the value of anything else. Even the same person might change the weights they use to value something depending on what's going on in their life.
        ashtonkem 6y ago
  - ric2b 6y ago
    What do you mean by "objective value"? My belief is that such a thing doesn't exist.
undefined1 6y ago
it does provide objective value. bitcoin is a store of value. digital gold. even if it never proves to be a viable currency, a secure digital store of value is objectively useful. especially if you're in a country experiencing institutional failure, risk of hyperinflation and so on.
- ashtonkem 6y ago
  > it does provide objective value. bitcoin is a store of value. digital gold. The only reason I don't laugh at these arguments is because I'm utterly exhausted by hearing them. The value prop for bitcoin is, fundamentally, circular. It's valuable because it's money (like gold!), but when you point out how it's an objectively crap currency, it's suddenly a store of value. When you ask why it has value, it's because it's the currency of the future. Round and round it goes. > even if it never proves to be a viable currency, a secure digital store of value is objectively useful. I mean, you're just asserting that it stores value. But, why does it have value?
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]

ric2b 6y ago

> But the issue is that Bitcoin isn’t supposed to provide subjective value, it’s supposed to provide objective value; it’s literally supposed to be money. Money's value is also subjective, I'm not sure what you think is objective about it. Sounds like you're just trying to dodge the comparison.

ashtonkem 6y ago
Definitionally, money’s value is not supposed to be subjective.
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  > Definitionally, money’s value is not supposed to be subjective. Not only is that not true, but if to was it would just render “money” a non-concept, because definitionally value (in general, not just of money) is subjective.
  - ashtonkem 6y ago
    Ah, the “everything is subjective” rabbit hole. No thanks, that’s never a useful conversation. The purpose of any monetary system is to facilitate the exchange of goods and services. That’s why humans make money; to avoid the need to barter or depend on social credit systems that don’t scale well. This provides us some objective goals with which we can compare and contrast monetary systems against; while what one does with money is subjective, we can objectively compare the efficiency and ease with which a monetary system can facilitate transactions. In this area Bitcoin does terribly. This is probably why Bitcoin advocates have mostly moved onto “it’s a store of value”, that’s more a more defensible proposition.
    - dragonwriter 6y ago
      > Ah, the “everything is subjective” rabbit hole “Everything is subjective” is a (reasonable) epistemological argument about all access to data about the world being through subjective lenses, and thus all conclusions about the world being grounded in subjectivity. But that's not the sense in which value specifically is subjective. Value specifically is subjective because value is dependent on the subjective utility functions of people who have (or who might seek to acquire) the good and it's competing/alternative goods. > This provides us some objective goals That's about the value of a monetary system not the value of money, but both the specific goals, and more particularly how they are weighted against each other, remain subjective and the source of considerable disagreement.
    - ric2b 6y ago
      > we can objectively compare the efficiency and ease with which a monetary system can facilitate transactions. Ok. How much does ease of use matter for the value of a currency? 50%? 20%? 80%? What about all it's other characteristics? You can certainly be objective when comparing each characteristic in isolation but the value of the currency depends on how all of them are weighted against each other, and that is completely subjective. Just like the value of anything else. Even the same person might change the weights they use to value something depending on what's going on in their life.
      - ashtonkem 6y ago
- ric2b 6y ago
  What do you mean by "objective value"? My belief is that such a thing doesn't exist.

undefined1 6y ago

it does provide objective value. bitcoin is a store of value. digital gold. even if it never proves to be a viable currency, a secure digital store of value is objectively useful. especially if you're in a country experiencing institutional failure, risk of hyperinflation and so on.

ashtonkem 6y ago
> it does provide objective value. bitcoin is a store of value. digital gold. The only reason I don't laugh at these arguments is because I'm utterly exhausted by hearing them. The value prop for bitcoin is, fundamentally, circular. It's valuable because it's money (like gold!), but when you point out how it's an objectively crap currency, it's suddenly a store of value. When you ask why it has value, it's because it's the currency of the future. Round and round it goes. > even if it never proves to be a viable currency, a secure digital store of value is objectively useful. I mean, you're just asserting that it stores value. But, why does it have value?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]