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So, what about refunds when corporations rip us off? And what about losing 100% of my funds when my key is lost or stolen? All keys are lost/stolen - it doesn'

So, what about refunds when corporations rip us off? And what about losing 100% of my funds when my key is lost or stolen? All keys are lost/stolen - it doesn't take a rocket degree to have observed that from human behavior. Who enforces splitting of equity when some rich dick beats his wife into submission? The courts don't control any bitcoin keys. The problems of bitcoin are proportionately larger than then problems with fiat. The only people saying otherwise are those that are profiting from the opposite perspective. If we are not a bitcoin miner, then how will we get the funds to begin with? Right now I can trade fiat for it, but in the future my children would not be able to trade fiat for it (assuming it's as good as you say it is). So, they will become indentured servants to the bitcoin miners.

xtracto 6y ago
All of those are the same problems money has. Refunds capability is something built on top of cash. It will be built on top of cryptocurrencies. Money can be stolen and locked and hidden and whatnot.
- UncleMeat 6y ago
  But if it is built on top of cryptocurrencies then you don't have the trustlessness that makes it different from cash and banking. Why would banks and businesses choose to transact primarily in btc?
  - DownGoat 6y ago
    Because the markets wants to trade on it. Going with the assumption that crypto will "succeed" in the future, any business or bank not trading on it would be loosing out to businesses that are capable to do both.
    - UncleMeat 6y ago
      That is circular. BTC will succeed as an investment because it will supplant other systems for banking. BTC will supplant other systems for banking because it succeeds as an investment.
      - xtracto 6y ago
        I think that's the same issue that every new technology related to network effects has had. Like Napster, Myspace, facebook, etc
- nelsonenzo 6y ago
  Yes, and we have built safety measures to protect individuals in these cases, none of which work in a trustless key-based storage world.
DownGoat 6y ago
It would be solved in the same way those problems are solved today, through court. Not following court orders ultimately leads to enforcement through force. You'd end up arrested and jailed at some point. >> If we are not a bitcoin miner, then how will we get the funds to begin with? Right now I can trade fiat for it, but in the future my children would not be able to trade fiat for it (assuming it's as good as you say it is). So, they will become indentured servants to the bitcoin miners. I don't quite understand the point you are trying to make here? Cash just don't magically appear today either. Why wouldn't they be able to trade fiat for crypto in the future?
- scatters 6y ago
  > Cash just don't magically appear today either. Cash doesn't, but money does. The principal function of central banks is controlling the rate of money creation to ensure that the money supply supports economic activity.
- nelsonenzo 6y ago
  > You'd end up arrested and jailed at some point. - assuming they didn't flee - assuming they didn't spend the bitcoin - assuming they didn't transfer the bitcoin, and then claim it was stolen/lost. With fiat controlled by banks, most liquid assets are frozen during these sorts of disputes for the above reason. A threat of jail in the future also doesn't really help the other person during that timeframe. Cash does magically appear, actually. It's printed by mints and released via monetary control.
  - shawnz 6y ago
    Civil forfeiture has become a controversial issue lately. It's not clear that the ability of financial institutions to do that is actually a net positive for society. Consider how it'd be easier to catch criminals without the fourth and fifth amendment, but it is thought to be more important that we provide protections against government overreach.
DennisP 6y ago
Some of the following applies more to chains with smart contracts, rather than Bitcoin itself, but: > refunds when corporations rip us off? Easily implemented in various ways. One old scheme is a simple 2-of-3 multisig, where the keys are buyer, seller, and arbitrator. If buyer and seller agree, the arb doesn't have to be involved, otherwise the arb decides where the funds go. > what about losing 100% of my funds when my key is lost or stolen? Hence Vitalik's advocacy of social recovery wallets: https://vitalik.ca/general/2021/01/11/recovery.html https://vitalik.ca/general/2021/01/11/recovery.html > Who enforces splitting of equity when some rich dick beats his wife into submission? The courts don't control any bitcoin keys. No, but courts have effective ways to make you pay up even when they don't directly control your funds, including putting you in jail for contempt. > my children would not be able to trade fiat for it If Bitcoin or whatever isn't available to anyone besides miners, then I don't see why it would have any value at all. Cryptocurrency that succeeds is out in the economy, not locked up in a small group of professionals. There are plenty of cryptocurrencies owned only by a small group of enthusiasts, and they are nearly worthless.
- boldslogan 6y ago
  This third party arbitrator’s decision... if it is not liked by one party. Wouldn’t that party demand an arbitrator on the decision1? But then couldn’t decision2 be demanded to be arbitrated by the other party. And then. And then... it doesn’t seem to stop? In other words it seems you would need some kind of judicial process to keep in check the arbitrators. Which then sounds just like regular money, where you can usually arbitrate many times? I’m also in the grandparent’s boat and I just want to get another view on this.
  - DennisP 6y ago
    That's not how it works in regular life. If two parties agree on an arbitrator, then that arbitrator's decision is binding.
- reaperducer 6y ago
  One old scheme is a simple 2-of-3 multisig, where the keys are buyer, seller, and arbitrator Who is the arbiter? Who pays for the arbiter? Do I have to negotiate for an arbiter for every purchase I make? There's a candy store down the street that takes Bitcoin. Am I really supposed to figure out an arbitration scheme just to buy a tub of popcorn?
shawnz 6y ago
Just continue to use fiat currency for those situations where you'd prefer the risk profile that they provide. The success of cryptocurrencies doesn't preclude the continued existence of fiat currencies.

xtracto 6y ago

All of those are the same problems money has. Refunds capability is something built on top of cash. It will be built on top of cryptocurrencies. Money can be stolen and locked and hidden and whatnot.

UncleMeat 6y ago
But if it is built on top of cryptocurrencies then you don't have the trustlessness that makes it different from cash and banking. Why would banks and businesses choose to transact primarily in btc?
- DownGoat 6y ago
  Because the markets wants to trade on it. Going with the assumption that crypto will "succeed" in the future, any business or bank not trading on it would be loosing out to businesses that are capable to do both.
  - UncleMeat 6y ago
    That is circular. BTC will succeed as an investment because it will supplant other systems for banking. BTC will supplant other systems for banking because it succeeds as an investment.
    - xtracto 6y ago
      I think that's the same issue that every new technology related to network effects has had. Like Napster, Myspace, facebook, etc
nelsonenzo 6y ago
Yes, and we have built safety measures to protect individuals in these cases, none of which work in a trustless key-based storage world.

DownGoat 6y ago

It would be solved in the same way those problems are solved today, through court. Not following court orders ultimately leads to enforcement through force. You'd end up arrested and jailed at some point. >> If we are not a bitcoin miner, then how will we get the funds to begin with? Right now I can trade fiat for it, but in the future my children would not be able to trade fiat for it (assuming it's as good as you say it is). So, they will become indentured servants to the bitcoin miners. I don't quite understand the point you are trying to make here? Cash just don't magically appear today either. Why wouldn't they be able to trade fiat for crypto in the future?

scatters 6y ago
> Cash just don't magically appear today either. Cash doesn't, but money does. The principal function of central banks is controlling the rate of money creation to ensure that the money supply supports economic activity.
nelsonenzo 6y ago
> You'd end up arrested and jailed at some point. - assuming they didn't flee - assuming they didn't spend the bitcoin - assuming they didn't transfer the bitcoin, and then claim it was stolen/lost. With fiat controlled by banks, most liquid assets are frozen during these sorts of disputes for the above reason. A threat of jail in the future also doesn't really help the other person during that timeframe. Cash does magically appear, actually. It's printed by mints and released via monetary control.
- shawnz 6y ago
  Civil forfeiture has become a controversial issue lately. It's not clear that the ability of financial institutions to do that is actually a net positive for society. Consider how it'd be easier to catch criminals without the fourth and fifth amendment, but it is thought to be more important that we provide protections against government overreach.

DennisP 6y ago

Some of the following applies more to chains with smart contracts, rather than Bitcoin itself, but: > refunds when corporations rip us off? Easily implemented in various ways. One old scheme is a simple 2-of-3 multisig, where the keys are buyer, seller, and arbitrator. If buyer and seller agree, the arb doesn't have to be involved, otherwise the arb decides where the funds go. > what about losing 100% of my funds when my key is lost or stolen? Hence Vitalik's advocacy of social recovery wallets: https://vitalik.ca/general/2021/01/11/recovery.html https://vitalik.ca/general/2021/01/11/recovery.html > Who enforces splitting of equity when some rich dick beats his wife into submission? The courts don't control any bitcoin keys. No, but courts have effective ways to make you pay up even when they don't directly control your funds, including putting you in jail for contempt. > my children would not be able to trade fiat for it If Bitcoin or whatever isn't available to anyone besides miners, then I don't see why it would have any value at all. Cryptocurrency that succeeds is out in the economy, not locked up in a small group of professionals. There are plenty of cryptocurrencies owned only by a small group of enthusiasts, and they are nearly worthless.

boldslogan 6y ago
This third party arbitrator’s decision... if it is not liked by one party. Wouldn’t that party demand an arbitrator on the decision1? But then couldn’t decision2 be demanded to be arbitrated by the other party. And then. And then... it doesn’t seem to stop? In other words it seems you would need some kind of judicial process to keep in check the arbitrators. Which then sounds just like regular money, where you can usually arbitrate many times? I’m also in the grandparent’s boat and I just want to get another view on this.
- DennisP 6y ago
  That's not how it works in regular life. If two parties agree on an arbitrator, then that arbitrator's decision is binding.
reaperducer 6y ago
One old scheme is a simple 2-of-3 multisig, where the keys are buyer, seller, and arbitrator Who is the arbiter? Who pays for the arbiter? Do I have to negotiate for an arbiter for every purchase I make? There's a candy store down the street that takes Bitcoin. Am I really supposed to figure out an arbitration scheme just to buy a tub of popcorn?

shawnz 6y ago

Just continue to use fiat currency for those situations where you'd prefer the risk profile that they provide. The success of cryptocurrencies doesn't preclude the continued existence of fiat currencies.