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You have to take into account that we are at the birth of a new asset class which means volatility is part of it. Look at the birth of the stock market, for exa

You have to take into account that we are at the birth of a new asset class which means volatility is part of it. Look at the birth of the stock market, for example, the birth of industry or real estate, the list goes on. Gold has been used as a store of wealth since at least ancient times. So it’s not quite a fair comparison. And the whole economy doesn’t need to collapse for an asset to be valuable. The reason Bitcoin is up is because people looking to maintain wealth are looking to broaden portfolios. S&P is overvalued for some, the US dollar is weak for some. Fed rates are still low, bond yields are low. If you take into account inflation those CDs and Money Markets you mention lose money. An extremely good CD will currently earn you 1% interest, meanwhile inflation will remove 2%. So it doesn’t need to be nonvolatile for it to be seen as part of a portfolio of wealth management, and it definitely doesn’t need to only be a last resort against complete economic failure since almost nothing qualifies. If you don’t already have a fully balanced and diversified portfolio, you may not need or be ready for Bitcoin yet... but that doesn’t mean there’s not trillions of dollars that are ready for it.

crazydoggers 6y ago
Again, valid useful discourse just gets downvoted nowadays. Not HN of past. Usually constructive comments would get some actual criticism or disagreement rather than just downvotes. I get it... BTC sour grapes just downvote. Same thing happened when I called out the GME fiasco when that was $300 a share. But pro tip so you’re not sour grapes in the future. Put aside you’re egos, and instead of downvoting things here that scare you or you simply disagree with. Try using HN as a learning tool. If you disagree with something.. comment first... then downvote. Discourse, discussion, debate. Those are the paths to learning and understanding.
- crazydoggers 6y ago
  I dare you to comment constructively instead of downvoting.
  - wpietri 6y ago
    Unfortunately, your replies suggest replying is not worth the effort, because you have a fixed set of beliefs and are here to argue them. Downvoting and moving on is the better approach.
    - crazydoggers 6y ago
      I don’t have beliefs. I have facts. And if you have alternative facts then please post them. What’s the benefit of downvoting rather than posting evidence to counter my posts. Since you don’t it means you don’t have relevant facts and instead seem to quell posts you disagree with.
      - wpietri 6y ago
        Believing that you don't have beliefs, just a direct line to the mind of God, is a great reason to downvote and move on. It's much more time-efficient.
        crazydoggers 6y ago
        It is a fact that the sky is blue due to Rayleigh scattering of light. That is a fact. I don’t “believe” the sky is blue due to light scattering ... I know it. And it doesn’t require “a line to the mind of God”. It’s called science, knowledge... education. It is a fact that cryptocurrencies have value as a store of wealth and are not ponzi schemes. Just because you don’t understand it doesn’t make it a belief on my end. Just like if you don’t understand why the sky is blue from how light interacts with nitrogen molecules, doesn’t make it a belief on my end. We could debate the current price of Bitcoin. We could debate whether it’s in a bubble (which happens all the time in legitimate asset classes like real estate or the stock market). We could debate if the fact that only certain sectors of the population have access is detrimental. We could even discuss if Tether is pumping up Bitcoin through manipulation. (My opinion, since I and everyone currently have very limited data on it, is that it is, but ultimately to a very small degree). And tether in the way you brought it up, is a red herring here because one lone bad player doesn’t negate everything. But dismissing cryptocurrencies as Ponzi schemes, tulips or beanie babies is simply ignorant and without fact. If there were facts that could support that conclusion, that would be worthy to discuss, but “extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence” Here are facts: COVID is a pandemic. Bitcoin is a store of value. Here are opinions based on fact: The COVID pandemic has caused enormous suffering. Bitcoin is a good store of value. Here are beliefs: COVID is humanity’s punishment. Bitcoin is going to ruin the world. Here are prejudices: COVID is a caused by 5G or Chinese conspiracy. Bitcoin is a Ponzi scheme. More reading on fact, belief, opinions etc: https://writing.colostate.edu/guides/teaching/co300man/pop12d.cfm https://writing.colostate.edu/guides/teaching/co300man/pop12... https://chem.tufts.edu/answersinscience/relativityofwrong.htm https://chem.tufts.edu/answersinscience/relativityofwrong.ht...
wpietri 6y ago
> You have to take into account that we are at the birth of a new asset class [like] the stock market Or it could be like tulip bulbs, beanie babies, or International Postal Reply Coupons (what Charles Ponzi sold everybody on investing in). Or it might not be a new asset class at all. It's not like there's a finite supply of integers.
- crazydoggers 6y ago
  The are fundamental differences to all of those things versus Bitcoin, and lots of really good sources of information about why they are different. It doesn’t matter if there are a finite supply of integers. I’m guessing you are alluding to being able to “print more Bitcoin” by moving decimal places or changing code or some such. That’s probably not going to happen, since you’d have to convince 51% of Bitcoin holders to dilute their own stake, since that’s how the consensus algorithm works. And if you don’t, we’ll then you have a fork, and as we’ve seen with Bitcoin cash etc, those typically don’t hold value, because fundamentally the value of a store of wealth is that everyone agrees that it’s a store of wealth. No one ever agreed or assumed beanie babies or tulips were stores of wealth. Those were speculative bubbles based on the assumption that tomorrow you could sell it for more. Bitcoin doesn’t need to be worth more tomorrow to make it valuable. It simply needs to hold wealth in a convenient, transferable, counterfeit proof manner that’s also not easily manipulated. And it does all of those things very very well. Ethereum likewise stores value, and also permits useful decentralized finance systems that also provide for storage and transfer of wealth. If you told dollar holders 100 years ago, that the money in their pocket would only be good based on the good faith of the US Federal Reserve they’d look at you cock eyed, because back then the dollar was gold backed. To the average joe, that gave them confidence in its value. And don’t get me wrong I’m not a gold bug that thinks we should go back to the gold standard. Just the opposite. Instead what the US did was brilliant. They simply said “trust” “believe” that the dollar is valuable and will remain valuable. And it’s been incredibly successful, again because it comes down to faith in the ability to hold wealth and have others respond in kind when transferring that asset. So do you believe the US dollar will hold value over the next 20 years? If you base it on the word of the government then that’s not as different as the the word of millions of Bitcoin miners. (Democratic consensus) If you base it instead on the value of the underlying economy using the dollar as a wealth exchange medium, well then again, Bitcoin currently does 87 billion USD worth of transactions per day. So it should be pretty clear that it’s incredibly different than tulips or beanie babies. If it’s not clear, I’d research a little more about the concepts of wealth historically, along with macro economics and monetary policies the world over. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Store_of_value https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Store_of_value If you think Bitcoin is an odd thing to believe in to store value and wealth, check out this island that uses giant stones... https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2011/02/15/131934618/the-island-of-stone-money https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2011/02/15/131934618/the-...

crazydoggers 6y ago

Again, valid useful discourse just gets downvoted nowadays. Not HN of past. Usually constructive comments would get some actual criticism or disagreement rather than just downvotes. I get it... BTC sour grapes just downvote. Same thing happened when I called out the GME fiasco when that was $300 a share. But pro tip so you’re not sour grapes in the future. Put aside you’re egos, and instead of downvoting things here that scare you or you simply disagree with. Try using HN as a learning tool. If you disagree with something.. comment first... then downvote. Discourse, discussion, debate. Those are the paths to learning and understanding.

crazydoggers 6y ago
I dare you to comment constructively instead of downvoting.
- wpietri 6y ago
  Unfortunately, your replies suggest replying is not worth the effort, because you have a fixed set of beliefs and are here to argue them. Downvoting and moving on is the better approach.
  - crazydoggers 6y ago
    I don’t have beliefs. I have facts. And if you have alternative facts then please post them. What’s the benefit of downvoting rather than posting evidence to counter my posts. Since you don’t it means you don’t have relevant facts and instead seem to quell posts you disagree with.
    - wpietri 6y ago
      Believing that you don't have beliefs, just a direct line to the mind of God, is a great reason to downvote and move on. It's much more time-efficient.
      - crazydoggers 6y ago
        It is a fact that the sky is blue due to Rayleigh scattering of light. That is a fact. I don’t “believe” the sky is blue due to light scattering ... I know it. And it doesn’t require “a line to the mind of God”. It’s called science, knowledge... education. It is a fact that cryptocurrencies have value as a store of wealth and are not ponzi schemes. Just because you don’t understand it doesn’t make it a belief on my end. Just like if you don’t understand why the sky is blue from how light interacts with nitrogen molecules, doesn’t make it a belief on my end. We could debate the current price of Bitcoin. We could debate whether it’s in a bubble (which happens all the time in legitimate asset classes like real estate or the stock market). We could debate if the fact that only certain sectors of the population have access is detrimental. We could even discuss if Tether is pumping up Bitcoin through manipulation. (My opinion, since I and everyone currently have very limited data on it, is that it is, but ultimately to a very small degree). And tether in the way you brought it up, is a red herring here because one lone bad player doesn’t negate everything. But dismissing cryptocurrencies as Ponzi schemes, tulips or beanie babies is simply ignorant and without fact. If there were facts that could support that conclusion, that would be worthy to discuss, but “extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence” Here are facts: COVID is a pandemic. Bitcoin is a store of value. Here are opinions based on fact: The COVID pandemic has caused enormous suffering. Bitcoin is a good store of value. Here are beliefs: COVID is humanity’s punishment. Bitcoin is going to ruin the world. Here are prejudices: COVID is a caused by 5G or Chinese conspiracy. Bitcoin is a Ponzi scheme. More reading on fact, belief, opinions etc: https://writing.colostate.edu/guides/teaching/co300man/pop12d.cfm https://writing.colostate.edu/guides/teaching/co300man/pop12... https://chem.tufts.edu/answersinscience/relativityofwrong.htm https://chem.tufts.edu/answersinscience/relativityofwrong.ht...

wpietri 6y ago

> You have to take into account that we are at the birth of a new asset class [like] the stock market Or it could be like tulip bulbs, beanie babies, or International Postal Reply Coupons (what Charles Ponzi sold everybody on investing in). Or it might not be a new asset class at all. It's not like there's a finite supply of integers.

crazydoggers 6y ago
The are fundamental differences to all of those things versus Bitcoin, and lots of really good sources of information about why they are different. It doesn’t matter if there are a finite supply of integers. I’m guessing you are alluding to being able to “print more Bitcoin” by moving decimal places or changing code or some such. That’s probably not going to happen, since you’d have to convince 51% of Bitcoin holders to dilute their own stake, since that’s how the consensus algorithm works. And if you don’t, we’ll then you have a fork, and as we’ve seen with Bitcoin cash etc, those typically don’t hold value, because fundamentally the value of a store of wealth is that everyone agrees that it’s a store of wealth. No one ever agreed or assumed beanie babies or tulips were stores of wealth. Those were speculative bubbles based on the assumption that tomorrow you could sell it for more. Bitcoin doesn’t need to be worth more tomorrow to make it valuable. It simply needs to hold wealth in a convenient, transferable, counterfeit proof manner that’s also not easily manipulated. And it does all of those things very very well. Ethereum likewise stores value, and also permits useful decentralized finance systems that also provide for storage and transfer of wealth. If you told dollar holders 100 years ago, that the money in their pocket would only be good based on the good faith of the US Federal Reserve they’d look at you cock eyed, because back then the dollar was gold backed. To the average joe, that gave them confidence in its value. And don’t get me wrong I’m not a gold bug that thinks we should go back to the gold standard. Just the opposite. Instead what the US did was brilliant. They simply said “trust” “believe” that the dollar is valuable and will remain valuable. And it’s been incredibly successful, again because it comes down to faith in the ability to hold wealth and have others respond in kind when transferring that asset. So do you believe the US dollar will hold value over the next 20 years? If you base it on the word of the government then that’s not as different as the the word of millions of Bitcoin miners. (Democratic consensus) If you base it instead on the value of the underlying economy using the dollar as a wealth exchange medium, well then again, Bitcoin currently does 87 billion USD worth of transactions per day. So it should be pretty clear that it’s incredibly different than tulips or beanie babies. If it’s not clear, I’d research a little more about the concepts of wealth historically, along with macro economics and monetary policies the world over. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Store_of_value https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Store_of_value If you think Bitcoin is an odd thing to believe in to store value and wealth, check out this island that uses giant stones... https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2011/02/15/131934618/the-island-of-stone-money https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2011/02/15/131934618/the-...