5 ms·

Isn’t a million dollar yearly budget really low considering how rich those companies are? That’s like 4 full time engineers. Not even a 5 a side football team.

the_duke 6y ago
Amazon and Microsoft are building internal teams to work on the compiler, so the budget of the foundation is not necessarily representative of the total financial investment by these companies.
- skohan 6y ago
  I hope that Amazon and MS will not represent the majority of investment in Rust's development. The incentive structure for an independent foundation is favorable for a variety of reasons.
bennyp101 6y ago
I guess that depends on where the engineers are, and how much they are paid - I've never known anyone (in coding) to be paid > £100k (~$140k) - but then maybe I move in the wrong circles! So you could certainly get more than 4 engineers on board, plus some project managers etc
- neuromancer2701 6y ago
  With 401k, healthcare, I have heard that a million bucks gets you 3 engineers. Or in the case of layoffs you get a million dollars worth of savings per year per 3 engineers laid off.
  - bennyp101 6y ago
    Yea, I guess if you are throwing healthcare etc in as well it can add up - and I guess US insurance costs are on the high end
- zimpenfish 6y ago
  > I've never known anyone (in coding) to be paid > £100k (~$140k) - but then maybe I move in the wrong circles! In London, >£100k is easy for contractors but I think you'd have to have some managerial responsibilities to get that as a perm (team lead or upwards.) But I may also be moving in the wrong circles...
  - bennyp101 6y ago
    Ah yes, I didn't consider contractor rates
  - gsnedders 6y ago
    > In London, >£100k is easy for contractors but I think you'd have to have some managerial responsibilities to get that as a perm (team lead or upwards.) But I may also be moving in the wrong circles... It's possible, but unusual, for base salaries for individual contributors to be over £100k, especially if you look at both FAANG/adjacent companies and financial firms (both investment banking and at hedge funds). If you include bonuses and stock compensation, those same groups can relatively easily hit £100k.
    - zimpenfish 6y ago
      > If you include bonuses and stock compensation I'd personally never consider those in salary calculations - been burned too many times. But yeah, I guess if people are getting bonuses and other compensations, it could well boost them over £100k.
  - renewiltord 6y ago
    No, there are lots of people who make more than that. I offered more and was turned down by them mid 2017.
- justsomeuser 6y ago
  These are Rust compiler engineers - probably quite rare/expensive.
- steveklabnik 6y ago
  To see what salaries are like in the FAANG companies, https://www.levels.fyi/ https://www.levels.fyi/
- oblio 6y ago
  If you're in a big Western city or can relocate, you can definitely find better circles ;-)
- khuey 6y ago
  Basically every software engineer in San Francisco is paid at least that.
- zucker42 6y ago
  I know people who made nearly this much as new grads (not including stock). https://www.levels.fyi/ https://www.levels.fyi/
- brendoelfrendo 6y ago
  The UK is, from what I've seen, a really low-paying market for IT and software engineering. At the big FAANG companies, you can make more than that as a new graduate (pre-tax, cash compensation only). I don't like generalizing on the FAANGs, because they are not the majority of the market, but even outside of NYC/Silicon Valley, developers can clear $140k after a few years of experience.
  - sofixa 6y ago
    > The UK is, from what I've seen, a really low-paying market for IT and software engineering Healthcare, vacation time and better work/life compensate that ( for some).
    - brendoelfrendo 6y ago
      Without a doubt, and it's a trade that I would make, but considering how important London is as a labor market, and how expensive it is to live there, I still think that UK business underpay their tech talent.
ericholscher 6y ago
Wait until you hear about how much funding the Python Software Foundation has in yearly donations... Quite a bit less than that.
- steveklabnik 6y ago
  I'm not sure that's true; https://www.python.org/psf/annual-report/2019/ https://www.python.org/psf/annual-report/2019/ says they had $3.1MM in revenue in 2019.
pianoben 6y ago
That's like one, _maybe_ two full-time developers in SV, at least of the sort you'd want to steward a project like Rust, plus a tiny bit left over to maintain the rest of the foundation.
gsnedders 6y ago
A lot of it depends on the scope of the foundation, and what it's expected to do. In many projects the foundation exists mainly to own and protect IP, rather than actually fund any development. Stewardship doesn't necessarily mean taking an active role; it could just mean ensuring the right people are in the groups that make the decisions.
rkangel 6y ago
I would assume that that budget is mostly for central organisation expenses rather than paying for development. Things like legal fees, paying for CI infrastructure etc. The development work would continue to be done by people being paid by various companies (or in their free time).

the_duke 6y ago

Amazon and Microsoft are building internal teams to work on the compiler, so the budget of the foundation is not necessarily representative of the total financial investment by these companies.

skohan 6y ago
I hope that Amazon and MS will not represent the majority of investment in Rust's development. The incentive structure for an independent foundation is favorable for a variety of reasons.

bennyp101 6y ago

I guess that depends on where the engineers are, and how much they are paid - I've never known anyone (in coding) to be paid > £100k (~$140k) - but then maybe I move in the wrong circles! So you could certainly get more than 4 engineers on board, plus some project managers etc

neuromancer2701 6y ago
With 401k, healthcare, I have heard that a million bucks gets you 3 engineers. Or in the case of layoffs you get a million dollars worth of savings per year per 3 engineers laid off.
- bennyp101 6y ago
  Yea, I guess if you are throwing healthcare etc in as well it can add up - and I guess US insurance costs are on the high end
zimpenfish 6y ago
> I've never known anyone (in coding) to be paid > £100k (~$140k) - but then maybe I move in the wrong circles! In London, >£100k is easy for contractors but I think you'd have to have some managerial responsibilities to get that as a perm (team lead or upwards.) But I may also be moving in the wrong circles...
- bennyp101 6y ago
  Ah yes, I didn't consider contractor rates
- gsnedders 6y ago
  > In London, >£100k is easy for contractors but I think you'd have to have some managerial responsibilities to get that as a perm (team lead or upwards.) But I may also be moving in the wrong circles... It's possible, but unusual, for base salaries for individual contributors to be over £100k, especially if you look at both FAANG/adjacent companies and financial firms (both investment banking and at hedge funds). If you include bonuses and stock compensation, those same groups can relatively easily hit £100k.
  - zimpenfish 6y ago
    > If you include bonuses and stock compensation I'd personally never consider those in salary calculations - been burned too many times. But yeah, I guess if people are getting bonuses and other compensations, it could well boost them over £100k.
- renewiltord 6y ago
  No, there are lots of people who make more than that. I offered more and was turned down by them mid 2017.
justsomeuser 6y ago
These are Rust compiler engineers - probably quite rare/expensive.
steveklabnik 6y ago
To see what salaries are like in the FAANG companies, https://www.levels.fyi/ https://www.levels.fyi/
oblio 6y ago
If you're in a big Western city or can relocate, you can definitely find better circles ;-)
khuey 6y ago
Basically every software engineer in San Francisco is paid at least that.
zucker42 6y ago
I know people who made nearly this much as new grads (not including stock). https://www.levels.fyi/ https://www.levels.fyi/
brendoelfrendo 6y ago
The UK is, from what I've seen, a really low-paying market for IT and software engineering. At the big FAANG companies, you can make more than that as a new graduate (pre-tax, cash compensation only). I don't like generalizing on the FAANGs, because they are not the majority of the market, but even outside of NYC/Silicon Valley, developers can clear $140k after a few years of experience.
- sofixa 6y ago
  > The UK is, from what I've seen, a really low-paying market for IT and software engineering Healthcare, vacation time and better work/life compensate that ( for some).
  - brendoelfrendo 6y ago
    Without a doubt, and it's a trade that I would make, but considering how important London is as a labor market, and how expensive it is to live there, I still think that UK business underpay their tech talent.

ericholscher 6y ago

Wait until you hear about how much funding the Python Software Foundation has in yearly donations... Quite a bit less than that.

steveklabnik 6y ago
I'm not sure that's true; https://www.python.org/psf/annual-report/2019/ https://www.python.org/psf/annual-report/2019/ says they had $3.1MM in revenue in 2019.

pianoben 6y ago

That's like one, _maybe_ two full-time developers in SV, at least of the sort you'd want to steward a project like Rust, plus a tiny bit left over to maintain the rest of the foundation.

gsnedders 6y ago

A lot of it depends on the scope of the foundation, and what it's expected to do. In many projects the foundation exists mainly to own and protect IP, rather than actually fund any development. Stewardship doesn't necessarily mean taking an active role; it could just mean ensuring the right people are in the groups that make the decisions.

rkangel 6y ago

I would assume that that budget is mostly for central organisation expenses rather than paying for development. Things like legal fees, paying for CI infrastructure etc. The development work would continue to be done by people being paid by various companies (or in their free time).