3 ms·

Genuine question: how much does this matter if much of it is renewables and cheap hydro? I feel like the negative externalities of using a lot of electricity ar

Genuine question: how much does this matter if much of it is renewables and cheap hydro? I feel like the negative externalities of using a lot of electricity are very very tied to where that electricity came from

Wowfunhappy 6y ago
Is there reason to believe even a majority comes from renewable sources? And then, how much of that clean energy could be powering other things which are instead using fossil fuels?
- Layvier 6y ago
  At least in Europe, the lowest prices (even negative sometimes) for electricity are when renewable energies are producing a lot (e.g. when there's a storm in the north sea). If bitcoin mines are plugged on the real time market of electricity they would have an incentive to turn on when there's a lot of renewable energy produced. Assuming mines optimize their mining schedules on that, there's a scenario in which it could even help soak up the low prices and push investments into renewables.
  - lucb1e 6y ago
    Maybe, but only running miners when electricity is cheap doesn't work for a proof of work currency. 51% attacks would consist of an individual turning on their ASIC on a windless day. You need a large base load for it to be secure.
- peteretep 6y ago
  I’d half remembered mining clusters near large hydro projects in China. As to the opportunity cost, getting the electricity from one place to another where it can be used if you have a local glut isn’t easy, aiui
- celticninja 6y ago
  A lot of mining is done close to hydro dams, this power was in some cases waste power that would be unused. So it is swings and roundabouts, I don't think any new coal power stations are being built to mine bitcoin but bitcoin miners have taken advantage of excess electricity production to site their mines where power is cheapest.
foepys 6y ago
Even if it were all green energy, why not use it to produce aluminum or to get rid of coal instead of wasting it on math puzzles?
madflame991 6y ago
That would depend on how much heat the computations/mining itself generates - has to be some - and the total effort to make graphics cards or other hardware for a lot of clients that would not really exist if crypto wouldn't be a thing
throwaway2245 6y ago
This is a bit too hypothetical: the most generous estimate I can find is that Bitcoin is still using 61% non-renewable energy, in as much as farms are favourably set up in places with cheap energy (somewhat but not entirely correlated with renewable energy).
nemetroid 6y ago
According to their mining map[1], 35% of the global hashrate happens in Xinjiang. From Wikipedia, it looks like most major power stations in Xinjiang are coal driven[2]. 10% is in Sichuan, which appears to be largely hydro-driven[3]. 1: https://cbeci.org/mining_map https://cbeci.org/mining_map 2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_major_power_stations_in_Xinjiang https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_major_power_stations_i... 3: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_major_power_stations_in_Sichuan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_major_power_stations_i...
- simonebrunozzi 6y ago
  It seems [0] that roughly 40% of crypto mining uses renewables. Yesterday I wrote a lengthy post about the topic [1], if you're keen to know more. [0]: https://www.smart-energy.com/renewable-energy/renewables-powers-almost-40-of-proof-of-work-cryptocurrency-mining/ https://www.smart-energy.com/renewable-energy/renewables-pow... [1]: https://simon.medium.com/bitcoin-and-pollution-the-definitive-answer-a010b0826f2a https://simon.medium.com/bitcoin-and-pollution-the-definitiv...
josalhor 6y ago
If you freed all those resources, you could equivalently reduce fossil fuel consumption (up to 0%, of course). So I say it matters very much.
- Spooky23 6y ago
  If you made it a crime to fly to tropical islands to enjoy the beach in the winter, you would enjoy a reduction in fossil fuels too, and people would be more productive than loafing about on the beach. End of the day, people choose to spend resources on things that provide utility to them.
raziel2p 6y ago
Even if all of Bitcoin uses renewables, that's demand for renewable energy that drives prices up, which will lead other energy consumers to either pay more or pick less expensive non-renewable energy sources instead.
- peteretep 6y ago
  I don’t think power markets are that fluid in most of the world
  - lucb1e 6y ago
    If energy demand suddenly halved, I do think we would choose to turn coal plants off before solar panels. Of course Bitcoin isn't half of any country's energy, but proportionally it works the same way. There is no reason not to turn it off except some daredevils' get-rich-quick scheme falls apart.
roland35 6y ago
One argument I've heard it's that it increasing the power demand beyond what renewables can handle. Reducing total power consumption would be more ideal.

Wowfunhappy 6y ago

Is there reason to believe even a majority comes from renewable sources? And then, how much of that clean energy could be powering other things which are instead using fossil fuels?

Layvier 6y ago
At least in Europe, the lowest prices (even negative sometimes) for electricity are when renewable energies are producing a lot (e.g. when there's a storm in the north sea). If bitcoin mines are plugged on the real time market of electricity they would have an incentive to turn on when there's a lot of renewable energy produced. Assuming mines optimize their mining schedules on that, there's a scenario in which it could even help soak up the low prices and push investments into renewables.
- lucb1e 6y ago
  Maybe, but only running miners when electricity is cheap doesn't work for a proof of work currency. 51% attacks would consist of an individual turning on their ASIC on a windless day. You need a large base load for it to be secure.
peteretep 6y ago
I’d half remembered mining clusters near large hydro projects in China. As to the opportunity cost, getting the electricity from one place to another where it can be used if you have a local glut isn’t easy, aiui
celticninja 6y ago
A lot of mining is done close to hydro dams, this power was in some cases waste power that would be unused. So it is swings and roundabouts, I don't think any new coal power stations are being built to mine bitcoin but bitcoin miners have taken advantage of excess electricity production to site their mines where power is cheapest.

foepys 6y ago

Even if it were all green energy, why not use it to produce aluminum or to get rid of coal instead of wasting it on math puzzles?

madflame991 6y ago

That would depend on how much heat the computations/mining itself generates - has to be some - and the total effort to make graphics cards or other hardware for a lot of clients that would not really exist if crypto wouldn't be a thing

throwaway2245 6y ago

This is a bit too hypothetical: the most generous estimate I can find is that Bitcoin is still using 61% non-renewable energy, in as much as farms are favourably set up in places with cheap energy (somewhat but not entirely correlated with renewable energy).

nemetroid 6y ago

According to their mining map[1], 35% of the global hashrate happens in Xinjiang. From Wikipedia, it looks like most major power stations in Xinjiang are coal driven[2]. 10% is in Sichuan, which appears to be largely hydro-driven[3]. 1: https://cbeci.org/mining_map https://cbeci.org/mining_map 2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_major_power_stations_in_Xinjiang https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_major_power_stations_i... 3: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_major_power_stations_in_Sichuan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_major_power_stations_i...

simonebrunozzi 6y ago
It seems [0] that roughly 40% of crypto mining uses renewables. Yesterday I wrote a lengthy post about the topic [1], if you're keen to know more. [0]: https://www.smart-energy.com/renewable-energy/renewables-powers-almost-40-of-proof-of-work-cryptocurrency-mining/ https://www.smart-energy.com/renewable-energy/renewables-pow... [1]: https://simon.medium.com/bitcoin-and-pollution-the-definitive-answer-a010b0826f2a https://simon.medium.com/bitcoin-and-pollution-the-definitiv...

josalhor 6y ago

If you freed all those resources, you could equivalently reduce fossil fuel consumption (up to 0%, of course). So I say it matters very much.

Spooky23 6y ago
If you made it a crime to fly to tropical islands to enjoy the beach in the winter, you would enjoy a reduction in fossil fuels too, and people would be more productive than loafing about on the beach. End of the day, people choose to spend resources on things that provide utility to them.

raziel2p 6y ago

Even if all of Bitcoin uses renewables, that's demand for renewable energy that drives prices up, which will lead other energy consumers to either pay more or pick less expensive non-renewable energy sources instead.

peteretep 6y ago
I don’t think power markets are that fluid in most of the world
- lucb1e 6y ago
  If energy demand suddenly halved, I do think we would choose to turn coal plants off before solar panels. Of course Bitcoin isn't half of any country's energy, but proportionally it works the same way. There is no reason not to turn it off except some daredevils' get-rich-quick scheme falls apart.

roland35 6y ago

One argument I've heard it's that it increasing the power demand beyond what renewables can handle. Reducing total power consumption would be more ideal.