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Sorry, I don‘t buy your last argument. You could argue the opposite: When a person desires change, they either want it for their personal gain, or have seen th

by yccs27 6y ago

Sorry, I don‘t buy your last argument. You could argue the opposite: When a person desires change, they either want it for their personal gain, or have seen the shortcomings of the current system and want change to get rid of them. Yet no system is perfect, and most changes have some tradeoff. When a person desires that matters stay the same, they are either profiting from the current state, or believe that the current system is better thought-out than it might seem at first glance, and are like this for a good reason. This line of thought is based on Chesterton‘s fence [1]. Of course, a well thought-out change is still a good thing, and not all reasons for the current system are sensible. I count myself as a progressive as well, but it is not as clear-cut as you make it out to be. [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/G._K._Chesterton#Chesterton's_fence https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/G._K._Chesterton#Chesterton'...

Blikkentrekker 6y ago
> When a person desires change, they either want it for their personal gain, or have seen the shortcomings of the current system and want change to get rid of them. The difference is that a man can rarely convince the others of a chance that is not in the interest of the many, but only in his own. If there be legitimately flaws in the system that he wishes to address, it will be far easier to convince the collective by pointing out said flaws. > When a person desires that matters stay the same, they are either profiting from the current state, or believe that the current system is better thought-out than it might seem at first glance, and are like this for a good reason. And the big thing you leave out: that many, many men simply desire inertia for it's own sake and are afraid of change for no other reason than that it be change. There are almost none in comparison who seek change for it's own sake, simply because they are afraid of matters staying the same.
- MockObject 6y ago
  > The difference is that a man can rarely convince the others of a chance that is not in the interest of the many, but only in his own. So political propaganda rarely works? Every political action is sold as beneficial to the many, but how many of them actually are? I feel like political dynamics are rather a bit less straightforward than you're portraying.
  - Blikkentrekker 6y ago
    I have never successfully seen, or even seen attempted, a sell that the republic be superseded by a monarch, and the orator be put on the throne with special privileges. Have you ever seen a republic successfully transition to a monarchy by will of the people because someone sold it as an idea in the people's interests?
    - dragonwriter 6y ago
      > Have you ever seen a republic successfully transition to a monarchy by will of the people because someone sold it as an idea in the people's interests? You can probably squint at the Cambodian restoration and describe it that way. While not a democratic republic, my understanding of the restoration of the Spanish monarchy to replace Franco’s fascist republic is that it essentially meets that description anyway.

by yccs27 6y ago

Blikkentrekker 6y ago

> When a person desires change, they either want it for their personal gain, or have seen the shortcomings of the current system and want change to get rid of them. The difference is that a man can rarely convince the others of a chance that is not in the interest of the many, but only in his own. If there be legitimately flaws in the system that he wishes to address, it will be far easier to convince the collective by pointing out said flaws. > When a person desires that matters stay the same, they are either profiting from the current state, or believe that the current system is better thought-out than it might seem at first glance, and are like this for a good reason. And the big thing you leave out: that many, many men simply desire inertia for it's own sake and are afraid of change for no other reason than that it be change. There are almost none in comparison who seek change for it's own sake, simply because they are afraid of matters staying the same.

MockObject 6y ago
> The difference is that a man can rarely convince the others of a chance that is not in the interest of the many, but only in his own. So political propaganda rarely works? Every political action is sold as beneficial to the many, but how many of them actually are? I feel like political dynamics are rather a bit less straightforward than you're portraying.
- Blikkentrekker 6y ago
  I have never successfully seen, or even seen attempted, a sell that the republic be superseded by a monarch, and the orator be put on the throne with special privileges. Have you ever seen a republic successfully transition to a monarchy by will of the people because someone sold it as an idea in the people's interests?
  - dragonwriter 6y ago
    > Have you ever seen a republic successfully transition to a monarchy by will of the people because someone sold it as an idea in the people's interests? You can probably squint at the Cambodian restoration and describe it that way. While not a democratic republic, my understanding of the restoration of the Spanish monarchy to replace Franco’s fascist republic is that it essentially meets that description anyway.