4 ms·

The "Hagakure" literally starts with something like "The art of the samurai lies in a way of dying. A samurai warrior enters battle as if already dead."

randmeerkat 6y ago
The samurai died out though, where as Japan’s unchanging ancient businesses managed to remain. I wonder if quick thinking isn’t just what leads one to an early end, business, life, or otherwise. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25281164 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25281164
- ceilingcorner 6y ago
  Yet here we are, idolizing them centuries later, while an old shop is a curiosity at best. Living long != living well.
  - cthor 6y ago
    Modern fascination with samurai is less idolizing and more fetishizing. Plenty of people telling stories. Not a lot practicing the art. And those that do are (rightfully) snickered at for taking seriously something that is supposed to be mere quaint fascination.
    - ceilingcorner 6y ago
      I’d suggest that others simply have a different perspective and that your label of “quaint” is merely your own modern bias. Edit: In other words, many people are dissatisfied with the contemporary world set up by merchants and bureaucrats. I don’t see it as misguided or quaint for them to look to the samurai ethic as a more appealing alternative. Its historical accuracy isn’t really relevant, as all history is story creation.
    - unishark 6y ago
      We don't have life all figured out in modern society either. Especially when it comes to dying (without it just being the end of a period of despair and depression), but also I'd say dealing with risk and difficulty generally. Eastern cultures didn't really have religions universally promising to provide all the answers/solutions like western culture had, so they developed very interesting alternative ways of addressing these struggles in life.
  - groby_b 6y ago
    But, oddly, it is also living short != living well. Almost as if the two are unrelated concepts.
    - ceilingcorner 6y ago
      The group under discussion, samurai, absolutely didn’t think they were unrelated.
  - ekianjo 6y ago
    Idolization is rooted in ignorance.
- Delk 6y ago
  I'm not an expert, but I've got the impression the dying out of the samurai class was pretty much because they weren't really needed any more, and such a special class wasn't really in line with the modernization and westernization efforts that were being made in Japan at the time. Of course any endeavour can meet an early end due to carelessness or because of not stopping and considering whether what you're doing is actually a good idea. But carelessness would probably not have been held in high regard by the samurai, and I generally fail to see a simple connection between to the samurai class becoming outdated and a preference for "quick" thinking.
rfrey 6y ago
It also started 150 years after the last Samurai battle, during a time when the Samurai were a bureaucratic clerical class. A fantasy nostalgia written by a clerk who had never seen battle or a fight of any kind.
- lloeki 6y ago
  Given that Bakumatsu and Meiji restoration happened in the 1850s the “last Samurai fight” happened only much later. The period in question was an attempt to keep fighters in check and prevent Shogun to be overthrown. Bushido was real, Hagakure was written by a scribe from discussions with a holder of Bushido because before that Bushido was mostly transmitted through oral tradition. That daimyo was one to challenge useless deaths such as junji, so it’s not like he was entirely a fan of the whole thing but he probably lived by Bushido very much to the core. Put into context that looks suspiciously like an interview for historical records and persistence in writing of an oral tradition. I would not be surprised if it was published only after the daimyo’s death because he made a vow to keep this knowledge secret, which was still common up to last century (Katori Shinto Ryu was probably one of the first schools to officially break with that and share previously secret knowledge about fighting technique and philosophy) Now, there is romanticisation of Bushido and Samurai, but mostly from 1900s imperialism and WW2 propaganda which taints our glasses very much.

randmeerkat 6y ago

The samurai died out though, where as Japan’s unchanging ancient businesses managed to remain. I wonder if quick thinking isn’t just what leads one to an early end, business, life, or otherwise. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25281164 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25281164

ceilingcorner 6y ago
Yet here we are, idolizing them centuries later, while an old shop is a curiosity at best. Living long != living well.
- cthor 6y ago
  Modern fascination with samurai is less idolizing and more fetishizing. Plenty of people telling stories. Not a lot practicing the art. And those that do are (rightfully) snickered at for taking seriously something that is supposed to be mere quaint fascination.
  - ceilingcorner 6y ago
    I’d suggest that others simply have a different perspective and that your label of “quaint” is merely your own modern bias. Edit: In other words, many people are dissatisfied with the contemporary world set up by merchants and bureaucrats. I don’t see it as misguided or quaint for them to look to the samurai ethic as a more appealing alternative. Its historical accuracy isn’t really relevant, as all history is story creation.
  - unishark 6y ago
    We don't have life all figured out in modern society either. Especially when it comes to dying (without it just being the end of a period of despair and depression), but also I'd say dealing with risk and difficulty generally. Eastern cultures didn't really have religions universally promising to provide all the answers/solutions like western culture had, so they developed very interesting alternative ways of addressing these struggles in life.
- groby_b 6y ago
  But, oddly, it is also living short != living well. Almost as if the two are unrelated concepts.
  - ceilingcorner 6y ago
    The group under discussion, samurai, absolutely didn’t think they were unrelated.
- ekianjo 6y ago
  Idolization is rooted in ignorance.
Delk 6y ago
I'm not an expert, but I've got the impression the dying out of the samurai class was pretty much because they weren't really needed any more, and such a special class wasn't really in line with the modernization and westernization efforts that were being made in Japan at the time. Of course any endeavour can meet an early end due to carelessness or because of not stopping and considering whether what you're doing is actually a good idea. But carelessness would probably not have been held in high regard by the samurai, and I generally fail to see a simple connection between to the samurai class becoming outdated and a preference for "quick" thinking.

rfrey 6y ago

It also started 150 years after the last Samurai battle, during a time when the Samurai were a bureaucratic clerical class. A fantasy nostalgia written by a clerk who had never seen battle or a fight of any kind.

lloeki 6y ago
Given that Bakumatsu and Meiji restoration happened in the 1850s the “last Samurai fight” happened only much later. The period in question was an attempt to keep fighters in check and prevent Shogun to be overthrown. Bushido was real, Hagakure was written by a scribe from discussions with a holder of Bushido because before that Bushido was mostly transmitted through oral tradition. That daimyo was one to challenge useless deaths such as junji, so it’s not like he was entirely a fan of the whole thing but he probably lived by Bushido very much to the core. Put into context that looks suspiciously like an interview for historical records and persistence in writing of an oral tradition. I would not be surprised if it was published only after the daimyo’s death because he made a vow to keep this knowledge secret, which was still common up to last century (Katori Shinto Ryu was probably one of the first schools to officially break with that and share previously secret knowledge about fighting technique and philosophy) Now, there is romanticisation of Bushido and Samurai, but mostly from 1900s imperialism and WW2 propaganda which taints our glasses very much.