13 ms·

Why doesn’t “Look Around” cover more areas?

89 points by joao 6y ago

paunchy 6y ago
Did anyone actually finish this article? It felt like it was building towards something really interesting but could have used just a bit more editorial discipline.
- sdfhbdf 6y ago
  It had gone into too details about author's life and specific cities midway and I ended up with just the conclusion that there is some chaos between different parts of Apple Maps - Look Around, POI etc. I also felt it was building towards something really interesting. Perhaps it could have used less examples.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- pierrebai 6y ago
  Sometimes, article have low information/length ratio. This one has a ton information of information, but still fail to satisfy because it has a low point/information ratio. It just rambles on with data points and examples. AFAICT, the points made are: * Apple switched from vans to subarus for data gathering. (IOW, they changed their data acquisition equipment.) * Their new equipment must be better, because Apple seem to have thrown away all data they acquired with vans. * Yet, they still lack tons of labels and mis-label / mis-place many buildings / store etc. * Apple seems to be processing data faster than they used to. ... and even these points are must of the shrug / why would I care category, except maybe the fact that most cities are not labeled. Take-away: you're better off with google street view.
  - ardy42 6y ago
    > This one has a ton information of information, but still fail to satisfy because it has a low point/information ratio. It just rambles on with data points and examples. On his front page, this article appear in this section: > Research + Updates > Material for future essays + updates to earlier essays It honestly reads more like notes than an article.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - Terretta 6y ago
    > they still ... mis-label / mis-place many buildings On the contrary, that was in the traditional map. The author’s actual point came after that: that Look Around didn’t have the same data quality issues, proving so free of such errors the author speculated whether they’re using manual labeling.
- coldtea 6y ago
  I've read from this website before, they're not about some snappy argument/case, they're about thorough research and lots of detailed examples.
johnfn 6y ago
I love this type of article, and the effort put into it - but the main thing I can't help but do is wonder what kind of person is driven to exhaustively research Apple Maps over a 5+ year period.
- ardy42 6y ago
  > I love this type of article, and the effort put into it - but the main thing I can't help but do is wonder what kind of person is driven to exhaustively research Apple Maps over a 5+ year period. I'm under the vague impression that Justin O'Beirne works in this space, so this isn't just a hobby. Can anyone confirm? Edit: this article (https://www.businessinsider.com/google-maps-vs-apple-maps-key-difference-2016-6 https://www.businessinsider.com/google-maps-vs-apple-maps-ke...) describes him as "a map expert who helped work on Apple Maps." This article (https://medium.com/all-consuming/the-most-overlooked-touchpoint-20ec2afade98 https://medium.com/all-consuming/the-most-overlooked-touchpo...) describes him as "Head of Cartography at Apple."
  - tobr 6y ago
    He is also listed on several mapping-related patents for Apple over the past several years.[1] It seems surprisingly un-Apple-y to allow someone in that position to publish articles detailing the flaws in Apple maps, speculate about where they get their data and how the quality problems might affect unannounced future products. 1: https://patents.justia.com/inventor/justin-o-beirne https://patents.justia.com/inventor/justin-o-beirne
    - ardy42 6y ago
      > It seems surprisingly un-Apple-y to allow someone in that position to publish articles detailing the flaws in Apple maps, speculate about where they get their data and how the quality problems might affect unannounced future products. That tells me he no longer works at Apple. If he did, why would he need to speculate about Apple's internal processes based on what they publicly release? This article (https://www.justinobeirne.com/a-summer-of-google-maps-and-apple-maps https://www.justinobeirne.com/a-summer-of-google-maps-and-ap...) from 2017 even has him noting hits from Apple's website and tracking how long it took them to correct gaps he outlined. Those two articles I linked were dated 2016 and 2017. Looking at his website, before that time it seems like he was mostly writing about Google Maps. So maybe he wrote about Google when he was at Apple, then started writing about Apple when he left.
coldtea 6y ago
>...seem to suggest that Apple might be having issues algorithmically identifying POI information in its imagery. And if that’s the case, it raises interesting questions regarding Apple’s overall mapping effort... Really? The quote sounds grandiose, but what "interesting questions" does it raise, aside from "it's not perfect" (who would have thought) and "what else might be missing?"?
- michaelt 6y ago
  Perhaps the article has been updated since you wrote this, but it no longer mentions "interesting questions" and instead includes a footnote saying if they can't annotate these images, that doesn't bode well for their rumoured AR headset.
hobbescotch 6y ago
Didn't realize so much of Canada was mapped. There's some really good imagery of northern Canada and the rockies there. I also noticed that the images don't distort as much around the edges of the screen when rotating the view as compared to Google Streetview.
maparticle 6y ago
Another great article from this blog! 2017's article from the same author [1] about Goggle Maps' use of photogrammetry and other building scanning techiques was, in my opinion, one of the most interesting HN submissions ever (its comment section[2] is also worth a read). [1] https://www.justinobeirne.com/google-maps-moat https://www.justinobeirne.com/google-maps-moat [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15965653 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15965653
gegtik 6y ago
One small nitpick >"Nor did it explain why, a week later, most of Southern Canada (a predominantly English-speaking region) also shipped without POIs" is followed by a snapshot of Quebec City (the french-speaking capitol of the french province) as evidence.
buu700 6y ago
Did anyone else misinterpret the title and think it was about the educational "Look Around You"[1] series? 1: https://vimeo.com/60825116 https://vimeo.com/60825116
- barbecue_sauce 6y ago
  Yes.
- dljsjr 6y ago
  "Look Around You" is satire from Peter Serafinowicz… Educational is a bit of a generous description. That said, Look Around You is hilarious.
- newbie34 6y ago
  Totally.
joosters 6y ago
https://maps.apple.com/imagecollection/privacy/uk/en/privacy.pdf https://maps.apple.com/imagecollection/privacy/uk/en/privacy... has this comment on the historical image collection: To ensure that Apple was applying the best image blurring technology possible, Apple conducted an entire year of test drives through the US and Europe in 2015, where it did not publish any of the imagery collected during these drives but used it instead to improve Apple’s technology such as image blurring techniques on such objects as faces and license plates. This might explain some part of the delay between the earliest data collection and publication.
- maparticle 6y ago
  This still doesn’t explain what was uncovered with the New York images. If Apple shipped them a month after collecting them (and if Apple has spend the past 5+ years driving), then why are so many areas missing Apple’s Street View?
- ksec 6y ago
  I thought it was obvious. Author wrongly assume those Data Collection from 2015 - 2018 were used for Maps. When they were actually done for training purpose or R&D. And it is obvious their detecting Algorithm is no where close to what Google is doing. Look Around is so much better than Google. But Apple Maps is still far behind Google Map in terms of accuracy.
  - maparticle 6y ago
    > Author wrongly assume those Data Collection from 2015 - 2018 were used for Maps. Apple said it was being used for Maps: https://web.archive.org/web/20150610193011/http://maps.apple.com/vehicles/ https://web.archive.org/web/20150610193011/http://maps.apple...
- GurnBlandston 6y ago
  This is still strange though - it's not like images are destroyed when they are used for testing. Is there a reason for not using these in Look Around that I've missed?
lucideer 6y ago
TL;DR since most people (understandably) didn't have the patience to read through the lengthy, drawn out, repetitious build-up of false-endings in the article: It looks like Apple threw away all data collected by their first (van-based) Look Around driving effort in the US. All released imagery is from their most recent Subaru-based re-driving of the US.
maxerickson 6y ago
Seems like the vehicle switch could be well explained by a big expansion in the number of vehicles (so move to something that has lower lifetime cost). A big expansion in vehicles might be motivated by trying to have fresh imagery for most of the country. The POI issue could just be that they just don't have a good POI database (because they all have problems).
- mynegation 6y ago
  My first thought was the view angle. Notice that cameras are placed immediately on the roof of the van, so the blind spot around the van must be wide. Subaru is a smaller car _and_ cameras are raised high, probably to get very tight blind spot around the vehicle.

89 points by joao 6y ago

Did anyone actually finish this article? It felt like it was building towards something really interesting but could have used just a bit more editorial discipline.

sdfhbdf 6y ago
It had gone into too details about author's life and specific cities midway and I ended up with just the conclusion that there is some chaos between different parts of Apple Maps - Look Around, POI etc. I also felt it was building towards something really interesting. Perhaps it could have used less examples.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
pierrebai 6y ago
Sometimes, article have low information/length ratio. This one has a ton information of information, but still fail to satisfy because it has a low point/information ratio. It just rambles on with data points and examples. AFAICT, the points made are: * Apple switched from vans to subarus for data gathering. (IOW, they changed their data acquisition equipment.) * Their new equipment must be better, because Apple seem to have thrown away all data they acquired with vans. * Yet, they still lack tons of labels and mis-label / mis-place many buildings / store etc. * Apple seems to be processing data faster than they used to. ... and even these points are must of the shrug / why would I care category, except maybe the fact that most cities are not labeled. Take-away: you're better off with google street view.
- ardy42 6y ago
  > This one has a ton information of information, but still fail to satisfy because it has a low point/information ratio. It just rambles on with data points and examples. On his front page, this article appear in this section: > Research + Updates > Material for future essays + updates to earlier essays It honestly reads more like notes than an article.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- Terretta 6y ago
  > they still ... mis-label / mis-place many buildings On the contrary, that was in the traditional map. The author’s actual point came after that: that Look Around didn’t have the same data quality issues, proving so free of such errors the author speculated whether they’re using manual labeling.
coldtea 6y ago
I've read from this website before, they're not about some snappy argument/case, they're about thorough research and lots of detailed examples.

johnfn 6y ago

I love this type of article, and the effort put into it - but the main thing I can't help but do is wonder what kind of person is driven to exhaustively research Apple Maps over a 5+ year period.

ardy42 6y ago
> I love this type of article, and the effort put into it - but the main thing I can't help but do is wonder what kind of person is driven to exhaustively research Apple Maps over a 5+ year period. I'm under the vague impression that Justin O'Beirne works in this space, so this isn't just a hobby. Can anyone confirm? Edit: this article (https://www.businessinsider.com/google-maps-vs-apple-maps-key-difference-2016-6 https://www.businessinsider.com/google-maps-vs-apple-maps-ke...) describes him as "a map expert who helped work on Apple Maps." This article (https://medium.com/all-consuming/the-most-overlooked-touchpoint-20ec2afade98 https://medium.com/all-consuming/the-most-overlooked-touchpo...) describes him as "Head of Cartography at Apple."
- tobr 6y ago
  He is also listed on several mapping-related patents for Apple over the past several years.[1] It seems surprisingly un-Apple-y to allow someone in that position to publish articles detailing the flaws in Apple maps, speculate about where they get their data and how the quality problems might affect unannounced future products. 1: https://patents.justia.com/inventor/justin-o-beirne https://patents.justia.com/inventor/justin-o-beirne
  - ardy42 6y ago
    > It seems surprisingly un-Apple-y to allow someone in that position to publish articles detailing the flaws in Apple maps, speculate about where they get their data and how the quality problems might affect unannounced future products. That tells me he no longer works at Apple. If he did, why would he need to speculate about Apple's internal processes based on what they publicly release? This article (https://www.justinobeirne.com/a-summer-of-google-maps-and-apple-maps https://www.justinobeirne.com/a-summer-of-google-maps-and-ap...) from 2017 even has him noting hits from Apple's website and tracking how long it took them to correct gaps he outlined. Those two articles I linked were dated 2016 and 2017. Looking at his website, before that time it seems like he was mostly writing about Google Maps. So maybe he wrote about Google when he was at Apple, then started writing about Apple when he left.

coldtea 6y ago

>...seem to suggest that Apple might be having issues algorithmically identifying POI information in its imagery. And if that’s the case, it raises interesting questions regarding Apple’s overall mapping effort... Really? The quote sounds grandiose, but what "interesting questions" does it raise, aside from "it's not perfect" (who would have thought) and "what else might be missing?"?

michaelt 6y ago
Perhaps the article has been updated since you wrote this, but it no longer mentions "interesting questions" and instead includes a footnote saying if they can't annotate these images, that doesn't bode well for their rumoured AR headset.

hobbescotch 6y ago

Didn't realize so much of Canada was mapped. There's some really good imagery of northern Canada and the rockies there. I also noticed that the images don't distort as much around the edges of the screen when rotating the view as compared to Google Streetview.

maparticle 6y ago

Another great article from this blog! 2017's article from the same author [1] about Goggle Maps' use of photogrammetry and other building scanning techiques was, in my opinion, one of the most interesting HN submissions ever (its comment section[2] is also worth a read). [1] https://www.justinobeirne.com/google-maps-moat https://www.justinobeirne.com/google-maps-moat [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15965653 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15965653

gegtik 6y ago

One small nitpick >"Nor did it explain why, a week later, most of Southern Canada (a predominantly English-speaking region) also shipped without POIs" is followed by a snapshot of Quebec City (the french-speaking capitol of the french province) as evidence.

buu700 6y ago

Did anyone else misinterpret the title and think it was about the educational "Look Around You"[1] series? 1: https://vimeo.com/60825116 https://vimeo.com/60825116

barbecue_sauce 6y ago
Yes.
dljsjr 6y ago
"Look Around You" is satire from Peter Serafinowicz… Educational is a bit of a generous description. That said, Look Around You is hilarious.
newbie34 6y ago
Totally.

joosters 6y ago

https://maps.apple.com/imagecollection/privacy/uk/en/privacy.pdf https://maps.apple.com/imagecollection/privacy/uk/en/privacy... has this comment on the historical image collection: To ensure that Apple was applying the best image blurring technology possible, Apple conducted an entire year of test drives through the US and Europe in 2015, where it did not publish any of the imagery collected during these drives but used it instead to improve Apple’s technology such as image blurring techniques on such objects as faces and license plates. This might explain some part of the delay between the earliest data collection and publication.

maparticle 6y ago
This still doesn’t explain what was uncovered with the New York images. If Apple shipped them a month after collecting them (and if Apple has spend the past 5+ years driving), then why are so many areas missing Apple’s Street View?
ksec 6y ago
I thought it was obvious. Author wrongly assume those Data Collection from 2015 - 2018 were used for Maps. When they were actually done for training purpose or R&D. And it is obvious their detecting Algorithm is no where close to what Google is doing. Look Around is so much better than Google. But Apple Maps is still far behind Google Map in terms of accuracy.
- maparticle 6y ago
  > Author wrongly assume those Data Collection from 2015 - 2018 were used for Maps. Apple said it was being used for Maps: https://web.archive.org/web/20150610193011/http://maps.apple.com/vehicles/ https://web.archive.org/web/20150610193011/http://maps.apple...
GurnBlandston 6y ago
This is still strange though - it's not like images are destroyed when they are used for testing. Is there a reason for not using these in Look Around that I've missed?

lucideer 6y ago

TL;DR since most people (understandably) didn't have the patience to read through the lengthy, drawn out, repetitious build-up of false-endings in the article: It looks like Apple threw away all data collected by their first (van-based) Look Around driving effort in the US. All released imagery is from their most recent Subaru-based re-driving of the US.

maxerickson 6y ago

Seems like the vehicle switch could be well explained by a big expansion in the number of vehicles (so move to something that has lower lifetime cost). A big expansion in vehicles might be motivated by trying to have fresh imagery for most of the country. The POI issue could just be that they just don't have a good POI database (because they all have problems).

mynegation 6y ago
My first thought was the view angle. Notice that cameras are placed immediately on the roof of the van, so the blind spot around the van must be wide. Subaru is a smaller car _and_ cameras are raised high, probably to get very tight blind spot around the vehicle.