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There are many proofs: - God is greater than the greatest imaginable thing, so must exist (this one is proven to be logically valid with computational theorem

by yters 6y ago

There are many proofs: - God is greater than the greatest imaginable thing, so must exist (this one is proven to be logically valid with computational theorem prover, and Bertrand Russell even said it was sound at one point in his life) - the world is intelligently designed - there must be a first cause, and that must be God - nothing in this world is perfect so there must be a transcendently perfect being - we can only be satisfied be an infinite being, so the object of our desire lies beyond this world - moral laws exist and require a law giver - our mind is not reducible to our body, and must have been created by an even greater being - jesus existed, claimed to be God, and rose from the dead according to reliable historical documentation Off the top of my head On the other hand it is impossible to prove atheism, you cannot prove a negative So we are left with theism and a lot of proofs, and atheism which is inherently incapable of being proven Seems the rational choice leans towards theism

psyc 6y ago
You and I have very different ideas of what the word ‘proof’ means. I have no doubt this is how it looks to you. From where I sit, we have theism and a lot of nebulous thought experiments that gel with the way religious minds already think, and atheism which is simply the default until the day God decides to grace us with a press conference.
- yters 6y ago
  There are tight logical proofs. Note I point out the ontological argument is now validated by computer. I am merely sketching them above. I also disagree atheism is the default. As Einstein says, simplify as much as possible, but no further. Atheism is incapable of explaining reality as we experience it. While simple it lacks explanatory power. Saying atheism is the default due to simplicity is like saying nothing is a better explanation than something because nothingness is simpler than something, which is clearly the wrong way to go about picking theories. Monotheism is our most parsinomous theory to date.
  - dragonwriter 6y ago
    > There are tight logical proofs. No, there aren't. > Note I point out the ontological argument is now validated by computer. While an invalid argument is useless, a valid one can still be no good. Here is a logically valid argument: Major Premise. all who post claims of proofs of God’s existence on HN should be killed. Minor Premise. yters posted a claim of proof of God’s existence on HN Conclusion. Therefore, yters should be killed. Now, if I claimed I proved you should be killed, you would probably object, and claim there was a problem with the major premise. And I think many people would agree with you, but the correctness of the premises isn't relevant to logical validity, only soundness.
    - yters 6y ago
      Well that's the problem with all proofs. If the premises are false the proof is not sound. That doesn't preclude the proof being tight, i.e. as in well reasoned and logically argued. Outside of mathematics you will be hard pressed to find a proof where someone doesn't disagree with a premise or two. And even within math we have intuitionists and constructivists claiming things like proof by negation is invalid. So if your criterion for solid proof is one that everyone agrees with, you are bound to be perpetually disappointed. On the other hand if your criterion is proofs that highly intelligent people find convincing after fully understanding the argument, then I again submit to you the ontological argument which even Russell claimed was sound at one point in his life before walking that back and saying it is wrong for some unknown reason.
      - dragonwriter 6y ago
        > Well that's the problem with all proofs No, its the problem with pure logical proofs, which is why for statements about reality rather than abstract relations of concepts, empirical proofs (despite being less absolute) are generally preferred. > the ontological argument Since you have merely waved at and sketched the argument, let me do the same it's demolition: existence is not a predicate.
        6y ago
dragonwriter 6y ago
> God is greater than the greatest imaginable thing, so must exist (this one is proven to be logically valid with computational theorem prover) Logical validity is a very weak thing to demonstrate (it is trivial to construct a logically valid argument for any position), to be a proof you'd need to show soundness. https://iep.utm.edu/val-snd/#:~:text=A%20deductive%20argument%20is%20sound,a%20deductive%20argument%20is%20unsound.&text=In%20effect%2C%20an%20argument%20is,the%20truth%20of%20the%20conclusion https://iep.utm.edu/val-snd/#:~:text=A%20deductive%20argumen.... Sure, if I give an axiom that “The greatest imaginable thing must exist”, “God is an imaginable thing”, and “God is greater than any other imaginable thing”, a computational theorem prover will validate “God must exist”. This doesn’t prove God exists. It just proves either God exists or one of your axioms are wrong. > the world is intelligently designed That’s not a proof, or even proven, just an unprovable conjecture. > there must be a first cause, and that must be God Those are two unproven claims, (“There must be a First Cause” and “If there is a First Cause, it must be God”), not a proof. > nothing in this world is perfect so there must be a transcendently perfect being That’s just a non-sequitur. Even taking the premise to be true, it does not (at all) lead to the conclusion. > we can only be satisfied be an infinite being, so the object of our desire lies beyond this world The “we can only be satisfied” part is unproven (and unprovable), and the other part doesn’t follow from it. That there must exist something that fulfills are desire to be satisfied is wishful thinking, not some kind of logical necessity, so even an infinite being was necessary for that that doesn’t mean such a being must exist. > moral laws exist and require a law giver All “moral laws” which provably exist are attributable to a huan lawgiver. Any other “moral laws” are speculative, as is any other lawgiver. > our mind is not reducible to our body, and must have been created by an even greater being The premise is not true, and isn’t even related to the conclusion. If it were true it would require a mind to have some nonphysical component, not “an even greater being” as a creator. > jesus existed, claimed to be God, and rose from the dead according to reliable historical documentation None of that is true based on “reliable historical documentation”
- yters 6y ago
  I recommend you look into these things more carefully, e.g. read the wikipedia article on historicity of Jesus. I am just throwing out sketches of the many different well know arguments for theism that atheist believe they don't even have to engage with to have an intellectually robust position. Well fine, anyone can believe anything they want to believe, but that doesn't mean they've put any careful thought into their position.

by yters 6y ago

psyc 6y ago

You and I have very different ideas of what the word ‘proof’ means. I have no doubt this is how it looks to you. From where I sit, we have theism and a lot of nebulous thought experiments that gel with the way religious minds already think, and atheism which is simply the default until the day God decides to grace us with a press conference.

yters 6y ago
There are tight logical proofs. Note I point out the ontological argument is now validated by computer. I am merely sketching them above. I also disagree atheism is the default. As Einstein says, simplify as much as possible, but no further. Atheism is incapable of explaining reality as we experience it. While simple it lacks explanatory power. Saying atheism is the default due to simplicity is like saying nothing is a better explanation than something because nothingness is simpler than something, which is clearly the wrong way to go about picking theories. Monotheism is our most parsinomous theory to date.
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  > There are tight logical proofs. No, there aren't. > Note I point out the ontological argument is now validated by computer. While an invalid argument is useless, a valid one can still be no good. Here is a logically valid argument: Major Premise. all who post claims of proofs of God’s existence on HN should be killed. Minor Premise. yters posted a claim of proof of God’s existence on HN Conclusion. Therefore, yters should be killed. Now, if I claimed I proved you should be killed, you would probably object, and claim there was a problem with the major premise. And I think many people would agree with you, but the correctness of the premises isn't relevant to logical validity, only soundness.
  - yters 6y ago
    Well that's the problem with all proofs. If the premises are false the proof is not sound. That doesn't preclude the proof being tight, i.e. as in well reasoned and logically argued. Outside of mathematics you will be hard pressed to find a proof where someone doesn't disagree with a premise or two. And even within math we have intuitionists and constructivists claiming things like proof by negation is invalid. So if your criterion for solid proof is one that everyone agrees with, you are bound to be perpetually disappointed. On the other hand if your criterion is proofs that highly intelligent people find convincing after fully understanding the argument, then I again submit to you the ontological argument which even Russell claimed was sound at one point in his life before walking that back and saying it is wrong for some unknown reason.
    - dragonwriter 6y ago
      > Well that's the problem with all proofs No, its the problem with pure logical proofs, which is why for statements about reality rather than abstract relations of concepts, empirical proofs (despite being less absolute) are generally preferred. > the ontological argument Since you have merely waved at and sketched the argument, let me do the same it's demolition: existence is not a predicate.
      - 6y ago

dragonwriter 6y ago

> God is greater than the greatest imaginable thing, so must exist (this one is proven to be logically valid with computational theorem prover) Logical validity is a very weak thing to demonstrate (it is trivial to construct a logically valid argument for any position), to be a proof you'd need to show soundness. https://iep.utm.edu/val-snd/#:~:text=A%20deductive%20argument%20is%20sound,a%20deductive%20argument%20is%20unsound.&text=In%20effect%2C%20an%20argument%20is,the%20truth%20of%20the%20conclusion https://iep.utm.edu/val-snd/#:~:text=A%20deductive%20argumen.... Sure, if I give an axiom that “The greatest imaginable thing must exist”, “God is an imaginable thing”, and “God is greater than any other imaginable thing”, a computational theorem prover will validate “God must exist”. This doesn’t prove God exists. It just proves either God exists or one of your axioms are wrong. > the world is intelligently designed That’s not a proof, or even proven, just an unprovable conjecture. > there must be a first cause, and that must be God Those are two unproven claims, (“There must be a First Cause” and “If there is a First Cause, it must be God”), not a proof. > nothing in this world is perfect so there must be a transcendently perfect being That’s just a non-sequitur. Even taking the premise to be true, it does not (at all) lead to the conclusion. > we can only be satisfied be an infinite being, so the object of our desire lies beyond this world The “we can only be satisfied” part is unproven (and unprovable), and the other part doesn’t follow from it. That there must exist something that fulfills are desire to be satisfied is wishful thinking, not some kind of logical necessity, so even an infinite being was necessary for that that doesn’t mean such a being must exist. > moral laws exist and require a law giver All “moral laws” which provably exist are attributable to a huan lawgiver. Any other “moral laws” are speculative, as is any other lawgiver. > our mind is not reducible to our body, and must have been created by an even greater being The premise is not true, and isn’t even related to the conclusion. If it were true it would require a mind to have some nonphysical component, not “an even greater being” as a creator. > jesus existed, claimed to be God, and rose from the dead according to reliable historical documentation None of that is true based on “reliable historical documentation”

yters 6y ago
I recommend you look into these things more carefully, e.g. read the wikipedia article on historicity of Jesus. I am just throwing out sketches of the many different well know arguments for theism that atheist believe they don't even have to engage with to have an intellectually robust position. Well fine, anyone can believe anything they want to believe, but that doesn't mean they've put any careful thought into their position.