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There's a strand of suspicion towards literacy in Plato. Mainly I'm thinking of the dialog in which Socrates talks to a man about to sue his father (I'm sorry,

There's a strand of suspicion towards literacy in Plato. Mainly I'm thinking of the dialog in which Socrates talks to a man about to sue his father (I'm sorry, I'm blanking on the name of the dialog); mainly the idea is that writing enfeebles the memory and intellect. > In the Phaedrus, it was predicted that writing and reading in general... would eventually encourage confused, self-indulgent thinking. We don't learn things, according to Plato, but the soul is brought to remember them again, and the remembering happens by virtue of a Socratic interrogation. If you read "x is the case", your soul hasn't been made to remember it, and worse, that proposition just might not be true which you won't discover without interrogation. Elsewhere (apologies, can't remember which dialog) Plato offers a description of thinking: the mind asks a question and then answers it. The form of the dialog models that process nicely.

denton-scratch 6y ago
Plato was an elitist; he wasn't against reading and writing in general, he simply thought that proles and people who weren't "like him" shouldn't be allowed to attempt it. 2,200 years later, I find I disagree. There's much that is good in Plato, but I don't include his social opinions.
- nescioquid 6y ago
  That Plato's criticism of reading and writing comes down to us through his composed dialogs (and who furthermore abandoned his aspiration to become a playwright) was the surface-level irony that caught my attention. That Plato didn't want people to read and write in order to keep them out of philosophy because he was an elitist seems very doubtful. In fact, wouldn't the literate, educated, paying students of the sophists constitute an elite? The concept of elitism itself, I find a bit anachronistic here. I think there's something more interesting going on, and it has to do more with epistemic concerns than gate-keeping.
BlueTemplar 6y ago
Hmm, Plato didn't consider that sophistry might be easier through oration than through writing ?
- nescioquid 6y ago
  Sure, there's the dialog where Socrates encounters the two brothers who teach people how to "fight with words" (Euthydemus). The dialog is really pretty funny to read, and the arguments the brothers throw around I've seen referenced as examples of eristics (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eristic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eristic).
  - BlueTemplar 6y ago
    Does he really say something in the vein that it wouldn't be as bad if they did this in writing ?
    - nescioquid 6y ago
      I am unaware of any such passage in Plato where the verbal expression of an idea is compared with the written expression of that idea; he criticizes eristics and he criticizes writing.

denton-scratch 6y ago

Plato was an elitist; he wasn't against reading and writing in general, he simply thought that proles and people who weren't "like him" shouldn't be allowed to attempt it. 2,200 years later, I find I disagree. There's much that is good in Plato, but I don't include his social opinions.

nescioquid 6y ago
That Plato's criticism of reading and writing comes down to us through his composed dialogs (and who furthermore abandoned his aspiration to become a playwright) was the surface-level irony that caught my attention. That Plato didn't want people to read and write in order to keep them out of philosophy because he was an elitist seems very doubtful. In fact, wouldn't the literate, educated, paying students of the sophists constitute an elite? The concept of elitism itself, I find a bit anachronistic here. I think there's something more interesting going on, and it has to do more with epistemic concerns than gate-keeping.

BlueTemplar 6y ago

Hmm, Plato didn't consider that sophistry might be easier through oration than through writing ?

nescioquid 6y ago
Sure, there's the dialog where Socrates encounters the two brothers who teach people how to "fight with words" (Euthydemus). The dialog is really pretty funny to read, and the arguments the brothers throw around I've seen referenced as examples of eristics (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eristic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eristic).
- BlueTemplar 6y ago
  Does he really say something in the vein that it wouldn't be as bad if they did this in writing ?
  - nescioquid 6y ago
    I am unaware of any such passage in Plato where the verbal expression of an idea is compared with the written expression of that idea; he criticizes eristics and he criticizes writing.