6 ms·

New Ubuntu installer will use Flutter

56 points by nahuel0x 6y ago

mikewhy 6y ago
Interesting, a few years ago Canonical were working on a react-native for Ubuntu. I wonder what happened with that. I also wonder what this means for cross-toolkit consistency.
- aritmo 6y ago
  The most obvious message is that flutter becomes first-class citizen in Ubuntu for cross-platform software.
  - mhd 6y ago
    Just like Mono was?
offtop5 6y ago
Great , I love Flutter and I see it as the future of cross platform development. Dart is like typescript with actual types, and without JavaScript ecosystem baggage
- tutfbhuf 6y ago
  Does Flutter (Dart) generate native binaries like Go?
  - Rochus 6y ago
    Yes, see e.g. https://flutter.dev/docs/resources/faq https://flutter.dev/docs/resources/faq
  - matthewaveryusa 6y ago
    yes and yes! Flutter generates a binary for desktop apps, although It's Alpha. In order to generate a binary in Dart (say for something that's serverside) you need to download the flutter SDK and run dart2native. It's rather new so there's still lots of room for performance improvements but it looks very promising.
- Pinguinsan 6y ago
  This isn't meant to be snarky, but why would we need a cross-platform UI toolkit for a (by definition) Linux only installer?
  - curryst 6y ago
    It makes sense to only use a single UI toolkit. If some of your stuff is cross platform, it's probably easier to write the single-platform stuff on the cross-platform toolkit than it is to have your devs need to know 2 or more toolkits.
  - offtop5 6y ago
    So developers have more transferable skills. I had to make a web app with a friend and I used Flutter which was absolutely amazing. Easier to work in than react native, and now if I want to work on some Linux desktop apps I have the skills to do so.
fartcannon 6y ago
What are the chances Flutter ends up in the google dumpster?
- ddtaylor 6y ago
  Canonical has their own dumpster too! Probably the biggest pieces in it are Ubuntu One and Unity.
  - G4E 6y ago
    And Mir, and Ubuntu Edge and....
  - johnisgood 6y ago
    Hopefully Snap will get into the dumpster, too.
- sofixa 6y ago
  Slightly lower than the chances Go does.
  - saurik 6y ago
    Wait, you think Flutter is safer than Go?
  - flashgordon 6y ago
    Really? Id love to the rationale more (seriously not being sarcastic).
    - curryst 6y ago
      Not OP, but one rationale would be that there are replacements for Go. Flutter seems to exist in a space where there aren't a ton of solutions, since I don't think react-native works on desktops (yet? Unless that's changed). If you kill Go, you can use Python or C++ or Java or etc. It might not have the exact paradigm you want, but it'll work. I don't think it's a great justification, though. You could probably add Electron support to react-native for fewer engineer hours than it takes to build and maintain Flutter.
bryogenic 6y ago
This might be off-topic but, when can i get cloud-init for physical installs? Without jumping through ten hacks? Isn't that the future for installers given the amount of effort being put into the project and it's cross distro focus? I'm genuinely curious on each of these questions, thanks for any insights!
- Spivak 6y ago
  What hacks? I mean the only difference between a VM running in Proxmox with cloud-init “support” and your physical host is that Proxmox can virtually insert a CD with the config on it with the label cidata. As long as you have some method to get your config on the host it “just works.” We’ve used a USB in the past. Check out the NoCloud datastore. https://cloudinit.readthedocs.io/en/latest/topics/datasources/nocloud.html https://cloudinit.readthedocs.io/en/latest/topics/datasource...
rychco 6y ago
I wonder what they will use next when Flutter ends up in the google graveyard.
nanna 6y ago
I recenly distro hopped around trying to install an encrypted Linux alongside windows. The installer used by Ubuntu made this completely manual, roll up your sleeves, set all your volumes up in the terminal. It took ages and was precarious as hell. The installer used by elementaryOS automated it, though it had a tendency to crash. The gui installer used by Debian and Manjaro was literally a doddle. Select a dual booting encpyped install and off you go. I was very surprised that installing Debian would be easier than Ubuntu, and pleased to hear Ubuntu is changing their installer.
- moistbar 6y ago
  >The installer used by Ubuntu made this completely manual, roll up your sleeves, set all your volumes up in the terminal. It took ages and was precarious as hell. The Ubuntu installer has been capable of doing disk encryption for several years now, so I'm confused what you mean by this.
  - arichard123 6y ago
    I think Ubuntu only makes this easy if you wipe windows. This was an install alongside Windows.
  - 29083011397778 6y ago
    I tried to do the same recently - the roadblock (I recall) having is that encrypting the entire disk is very easy. Encrypting none of an individual partition is very easy. Encrypting just your Ubuntu install and not breaking your windows install is dramatically less plug'n'play.
    - moistbar 6y ago
      I'll have to try that when I get home. I seem to remember that being covered, but I may be thinking of Fedora.
    - nanna 6y ago
      Yep, exactly this is what I meant.
twobitshifter 6y ago
The blog mentions the installer is a “start over” from the Ubiquity installer, which is now too old, and that they’re not making use of other contemporary installers. Is this a rewrite from scratch mistake? https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/04/06/things-you-should-never-do-part-i/ https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/04/06/things-you-should-... In my world, there’s been a software package that has been trapped in a rewrite for 11 years. They’ve added many features over the years but still haven’t reproduced the original functionality of the older version. That version was in development for 15 years. The only code shared between the 2 is the code that was not developed in house. It’s made my want to run screaming out of the room whenever I hear the words complete rewrite. We now have one application that does some things well and another that does other things. Investing the same energy in the original could have given us so much more.
fmakunbound 6y ago
How does one use Flutter from other languages? It seems tied to Dart and UIs tied to specific languages seem to be stuck there (thinking e.g. GT or Morphic from Smalltalk land).
- mfarstad 6y ago
  I think that the functional aspect of Dart and the near-immediate mode that flutter provides are a godsend. UI in other languages is a sticky mess of callbacks and dealing with anything multithreaded is a chore. Flutter just rebuilds and rebinds everything once the state changes (you'd be surprised how fast it is!)
junon 6y ago
Ubuntu developers supporting Google. Wow.
fito 6y ago
I’m glad they finally dumped their idea to use Electron to develop Ubiquity’s replacement.

56 points by nahuel0x 6y ago

Interesting, a few years ago Canonical were working on a react-native for Ubuntu. I wonder what happened with that. I also wonder what this means for cross-toolkit consistency.

aritmo 6y ago
The most obvious message is that flutter becomes first-class citizen in Ubuntu for cross-platform software.
- mhd 6y ago
  Just like Mono was?

offtop5 6y ago

Great , I love Flutter and I see it as the future of cross platform development. Dart is like typescript with actual types, and without JavaScript ecosystem baggage

tutfbhuf 6y ago
Does Flutter (Dart) generate native binaries like Go?
- Rochus 6y ago
  Yes, see e.g. https://flutter.dev/docs/resources/faq https://flutter.dev/docs/resources/faq
- matthewaveryusa 6y ago
  yes and yes! Flutter generates a binary for desktop apps, although It's Alpha. In order to generate a binary in Dart (say for something that's serverside) you need to download the flutter SDK and run dart2native. It's rather new so there's still lots of room for performance improvements but it looks very promising.
Pinguinsan 6y ago
This isn't meant to be snarky, but why would we need a cross-platform UI toolkit for a (by definition) Linux only installer?
- curryst 6y ago
  It makes sense to only use a single UI toolkit. If some of your stuff is cross platform, it's probably easier to write the single-platform stuff on the cross-platform toolkit than it is to have your devs need to know 2 or more toolkits.
- offtop5 6y ago
  So developers have more transferable skills. I had to make a web app with a friend and I used Flutter which was absolutely amazing. Easier to work in than react native, and now if I want to work on some Linux desktop apps I have the skills to do so.

fartcannon 6y ago

What are the chances Flutter ends up in the google dumpster?

ddtaylor 6y ago
Canonical has their own dumpster too! Probably the biggest pieces in it are Ubuntu One and Unity.
- G4E 6y ago
  And Mir, and Ubuntu Edge and....
- johnisgood 6y ago
  Hopefully Snap will get into the dumpster, too.
sofixa 6y ago
Slightly lower than the chances Go does.
- saurik 6y ago
  Wait, you think Flutter is safer than Go?
- flashgordon 6y ago
  Really? Id love to the rationale more (seriously not being sarcastic).
  - curryst 6y ago
    Not OP, but one rationale would be that there are replacements for Go. Flutter seems to exist in a space where there aren't a ton of solutions, since I don't think react-native works on desktops (yet? Unless that's changed). If you kill Go, you can use Python or C++ or Java or etc. It might not have the exact paradigm you want, but it'll work. I don't think it's a great justification, though. You could probably add Electron support to react-native for fewer engineer hours than it takes to build and maintain Flutter.

bryogenic 6y ago

This might be off-topic but, when can i get cloud-init for physical installs? Without jumping through ten hacks? Isn't that the future for installers given the amount of effort being put into the project and it's cross distro focus? I'm genuinely curious on each of these questions, thanks for any insights!

Spivak 6y ago
What hacks? I mean the only difference between a VM running in Proxmox with cloud-init “support” and your physical host is that Proxmox can virtually insert a CD with the config on it with the label cidata. As long as you have some method to get your config on the host it “just works.” We’ve used a USB in the past. Check out the NoCloud datastore. https://cloudinit.readthedocs.io/en/latest/topics/datasources/nocloud.html https://cloudinit.readthedocs.io/en/latest/topics/datasource...

rychco 6y ago

I wonder what they will use next when Flutter ends up in the google graveyard.

nanna 6y ago

I recenly distro hopped around trying to install an encrypted Linux alongside windows. The installer used by Ubuntu made this completely manual, roll up your sleeves, set all your volumes up in the terminal. It took ages and was precarious as hell. The installer used by elementaryOS automated it, though it had a tendency to crash. The gui installer used by Debian and Manjaro was literally a doddle. Select a dual booting encpyped install and off you go. I was very surprised that installing Debian would be easier than Ubuntu, and pleased to hear Ubuntu is changing their installer.

moistbar 6y ago
>The installer used by Ubuntu made this completely manual, roll up your sleeves, set all your volumes up in the terminal. It took ages and was precarious as hell. The Ubuntu installer has been capable of doing disk encryption for several years now, so I'm confused what you mean by this.
- arichard123 6y ago
  I think Ubuntu only makes this easy if you wipe windows. This was an install alongside Windows.
- 29083011397778 6y ago
  I tried to do the same recently - the roadblock (I recall) having is that encrypting the entire disk is very easy. Encrypting none of an individual partition is very easy. Encrypting just your Ubuntu install and not breaking your windows install is dramatically less plug'n'play.
  - moistbar 6y ago
    I'll have to try that when I get home. I seem to remember that being covered, but I may be thinking of Fedora.
  - nanna 6y ago
    Yep, exactly this is what I meant.

twobitshifter 6y ago

The blog mentions the installer is a “start over” from the Ubiquity installer, which is now too old, and that they’re not making use of other contemporary installers. Is this a rewrite from scratch mistake? https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/04/06/things-you-should-never-do-part-i/ https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/04/06/things-you-should-... In my world, there’s been a software package that has been trapped in a rewrite for 11 years. They’ve added many features over the years but still haven’t reproduced the original functionality of the older version. That version was in development for 15 years. The only code shared between the 2 is the code that was not developed in house. It’s made my want to run screaming out of the room whenever I hear the words complete rewrite. We now have one application that does some things well and another that does other things. Investing the same energy in the original could have given us so much more.

fmakunbound 6y ago

How does one use Flutter from other languages? It seems tied to Dart and UIs tied to specific languages seem to be stuck there (thinking e.g. GT or Morphic from Smalltalk land).

mfarstad 6y ago
I think that the functional aspect of Dart and the near-immediate mode that flutter provides are a godsend. UI in other languages is a sticky mess of callbacks and dealing with anything multithreaded is a chore. Flutter just rebuilds and rebinds everything once the state changes (you'd be surprised how fast it is!)

junon 6y ago

Ubuntu developers supporting Google. Wow.

fito 6y ago

I’m glad they finally dumped their idea to use Electron to develop Ubiquity’s replacement.